Charisse Deschenes (00:36)
Welcome back to another episode of Unmuted In today's episode, we're doing something a little bit different. I get the chance to sit down with my co-host Kellye to talk about the parts of her journey that has shaped the leader she is today. Welcome, Kellye. Are you up for today's challenge?
Kellye Mazzoli (00:51)
Hi! Yes.
Hey, we always talk about uncomfortable, so here I am talking about myself, one of my least favorite things to do, honestly.
Charisse Deschenes (01:03)
Well, I'm really looking forward to learning so much more about you. So, well, you want to jump right in?
Kellye Mazzoli (01:08)
Let's jump right in.
Charisse Deschenes (01:10)
Okay, so I want to start at the beginning because who are we and who we are today is so rooted in where we came from. What was your childhood like for you?
Kellye Mazzoli (01:21)
Hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (01:22)
Hahaha
Kellye Mazzoli (01:23)
Okay, let's go way back. Well, I guess it all starts with, should say this, that this isn't something that I think that I've shared with a whole lot of people. Some people may know this, but I was born to a 17-year-old mom and dad. That dad I actually never met. the only thing I really know about him really is that he spent more than a decade in federal prison. So I'd say...
very serious beginnings. Instability was sort of a part of my childhood from day one. Life was a little complicated, as you can imagine, with a young mom. She was incredible in so many ways and so bright. Gosh, she's just fun and creative and...
She really dreamed of a bigger and better life for me, a different life for me than what she had. And she made really tough decisions to put me in places to make sure that I had that better life. And so, but in that, as you can imagine, there's a lot of stress with being so young. And so there were stretches there too, where she couldn't be fully present and she was a little checked out at times.
But her message to me was really, don't repeat my life. Although she'll always say like she would never trade me for the world, but yeah, she did everything she could to make sure that I didn't do that.
I was really lucky though with having a young mom, because that meant we actually lived with my grandparents. And so I think I would share a lot of people did get an opportunity to meet Paw Paw. And I'm sorry for any of those who did not get a chance to meet him, but he was my anchor. He was my grandfather. He was my safety pin, I guess I would say. And so the story goes that when he...
When I was brought home from the hospital, like he asked if he could hold it referring to me. And my grandma was like, sure, and handed me over right after they walked in the door. And as legend would have it, he quote, never put me down. And that's really honestly how I felt through my my entire life. There was a bond there that was just never broke. We were two peas in a pod. And he
Charisse Deschenes (03:27)
Ha ha!
Kellye Mazzoli (03:49)
had that time with me because he was in a tragic accident that broke both of his legs. And there were a number of surgeries back then and a number of complications that caused him to not be able to work. And this man had always worked at least two jobs. was in the Navy and he would bartend, he would bartend like for the officers club. Like he just never sat still. So to not have two jobs, to not be able to work was like a big deal.
And I kind of, in a way, became his job, but in like the best way. So he's the reason I got to skate competitively. He would work on cars and things for money so that I could could skate. And he was there for every practice, every every competition. And really, honestly, he gave me a lot of stability when when it was when it was lacking.
Charisse Deschenes (04:22)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (04:43)
So he's the reason I knew what it felt like to be stable and safe. So, you know, I think looking back on that childhood and
going through the difficult times and trust me there were plenty of wonderful times too. I never really felt like I wanted for anything. I felt very whole and complete. But I learned that really honestly for someone, especially a young person, it could just take one steady person to help change their entire trajectory. And I was lucky to have that. So there's my
Charisse Deschenes (05:16)
Yeah, yeah.
⁓
Kellye Mazzoli (05:17)
There's
my origin story.
Charisse Deschenes (05:20)
Kellye, that's so powerful.
I loved, like you said, from that moment, Paw Paw never put you down. And he lifted you up, and he set that foundation for you that helped shape you. And so that's a really powerful beginning for you. And so having shared that story, how did that lead you into your city management?
Kellye Mazzoli (05:41)
Yeah, so whenever you talk about sort of coming from that little bit of instability, you can either repeat it or you can create the opposite of it. And so for me, I knew really, really quickly that I had to create stability in my life and I felt like education was my path. so, I mean, I
I skipped seventh grade, I graduated high school at 16, I was still valedictorian. And the reason I did that is because, you my mom had shared with me that she didn't get to go to college right off the bat because she had me at such a young age. But that was the right path in life, that you get education. Education is the key to everything, to open the doors to a really wonderful life. And so we didn't have a whole lot of money.
We did live paycheck to paycheck, but like I said, I never really wanted for anything. But what that meant was in order for me to go to school, I knew I needed scholarships. And the way that I knew I could get those scholarships was to be really smart. So I really put my all into it. It was my job. I treated it like a job from a very young age. And so yeah, I did. earned scholarships to go to Southern Methodist University, SMU, and...
It was there that I had a professor where I discovered city management. She actually just kind of told me she read one of my media and she was my media and politics professor. And she read one of my papers and said, I have an MPA. You should get an MPA like this would be good for you. And I had no idea what an MPA was like. None, whatsoever. And I looked into it and ended up pursuing it. So that was sort of my my odd pathway into city management.
and finding this pathway into a profession where you're not elected, but you can shape how an entire community works. Like my first internship in the city of Cockerill Hill, my little teeny tiny like one square mile, I got to do it all. I got to be at all. It was just, I was like, this is it. And I kinda knew like...
This is how I can be an anchor for other people and not just one person at a time, but for like a whole community for for a whole organization. And I'll just I'll never forget a time whenever I had to present in front of city council. And this was with my my my I like to lovingly refer to him as my grandpa's city manager, Curtis Hawk. I think he mentored a lot.
of people in the profession over the years in North Texas. And I was one of the lucky last ones there right before he retired. And I didn't know I was going to present to city council, had no idea, but it was sort of a last minute thing. And he tells me right before the council meeting is about to start. So I have no presentation, I've done no practice. It's my first time in front of city council in the city and he just goes, fly like a hawk.
I was just like, what? But even, you it's like, like you have to be adaptable. You have to sort of rise above and you just have to like things are going to come up and you just got to kind of like jump in and you just got to do it. And that really stuck with me. He gave me a lot of really good advice, too. And one of those was as a city manager, your your your job is only in Texas, it's 72 hour notice on the agenda, but it's only 72 hours in a four, three vote.
And it helped keep me humble through my whole career sort of understanding that, yes, there is some instability there, which is scary for me with my background, but that there is some stability in this idea that that's all it is. 72 hours, it's a four, three vote, and then you move on. So yeah, that's how I got into city management.
Charisse Deschenes (09:31)
That's amazing. And it's good to have those mentors in your life for sure to show you the way, make you fly like a hawk.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:35)
I was very lucky.
Just remember, he's like, just go
for it. Just go for it, Kellye. Like, all right.
Charisse Deschenes (09:43)
Well, little,
yeah, like thinking a little bit about that conflict. And city managers always tell us that they live in that constant contact between the councils, the media, the politics. Did you experience anything like that in your career?
Kellye Mazzoli (09:59)
yes,
yes. I mean, I don't think that there's, if you're doing it right, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I've been in the council chambers whenever the tension is just so thick, like you can feel it. You can feel it in your chest. You know, there are these, the decisions that are being made on that dais, they're consequential. They affect humans, they affect people and the decisions are important. And so I always try to remember that
Charisse Deschenes (10:04)
Ha ha ha.
yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (10:26)
You know, while I'm not an elected official, I mean, my my job really is to give them all the advice and all the information so that they can make the best possible decision because because there are consequences to those decisions. Not always a right and a wrong decision necessarily, but really that it's. It's important and it's going to impact people as far as like the media. my goodness, like when wasn't there a time where the newspaper maybe, you know, inadvertently got the wrong?
know, fact or figure and sort of jumped on a story, you know, especially like national media and that kind of attention. It sort of has a life of its own. It's not even the media's fault necessarily, but people pull out like the one piece of a story and they don't have all the context. And so I went through multiple times in both Texas and Washington throughout my career where we were we were dealing with that national.
Charisse Deschenes (11:01)
Hmm
Kellye Mazzoli (11:20)
media frenzy. So yeah, there is a lot of pressure to be liked. There's a lot of pressure to always do the right thing. And yeah, I mean, at times it was a little overwhelming. But I think I mean, I always knew why I was there.
Charisse Deschenes (11:32)
And I think, know, like just thinking about listeners and what you said about the media and the national media. So many of us in local government now are really experiencing that local media and that national media is impacting how our cities are run today.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:44)
Yeah.
I do think
that there's a big question about, for every city manager, every local government leader is, do I get pulled into this drama? Do I let this headline define me? Or do I try to stay really focused on what matters? And I'll say this. I said I never met my dad, but I did receive a letter from him when I turned 17.
And it was a Winnie the Pooh birthday card. And I remember being offended. Like, doesn't he know how old I am? But I think even more so is that, you know, it was a time whenever he was he was serving time part of his life, whenever he was serving time. And so it was a picture of him in his prison sweats. I'll never forget it. And it had his prison number on there. And he was asking me to write back. And here I am literally in that, you know, I'm 17. This is this was the age at which
Charisse Deschenes (12:21)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:45)
my mother and father had me. So I'm at the same age and I had to decide, do I open this box? Do I create this relationship? Do I get into this? Do I get pulled into this drama or do I keep moving forward? And I decided that I was gonna keep moving forward. So I think that while that was a really hard lesson for me to make that decision at that age, but I mean,
Charisse Deschenes (12:47)
Huh.
Kellye Mazzoli (13:12)
I was getting ready to go off to college. I was getting ready to start my life. I'd worked really, really hard to not repeat the exact same story of my parents that I decided to keep that box closed. And so I think that that translates into like, do I get pulled into this drama? Do I choose this headline? Do I stay focused on what really matters to me? And I did, and you know.
Charisse Deschenes (13:27)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (13:33)
There's pressure, it's difficult to set boundaries. You have to know when to filter, but if you don't, then the noise will sort of run your whole life and run your whole career at the same token. And I just, I guess I got exposed to that lesson very early in life.
Charisse Deschenes (13:43)
Yes.
Well, you bring that back around to city management and those times where you are in a, you know, maybe you're in a firefight and, know, how do you balance that firefight that you have with the long-term strategy of running a city, knowing you have to be in both places at once and you have to continue forward regardless of
all the noise that surrounds you.
Kellye Mazzoli (14:20)
I think that that is one of the biggest traps of city management, because you could honestly spend every single day firefighting. There are constant barrage of emails, there are council questions, there are public complaints and comments, and there's always, you know, the bigger the organization gets, it's great to have all these resources of people helping you accomplish the mission of the city. But there's that also means there's more complications with staffing and
in HR type issues. so, yeah, I think, gosh, you could spend your whole entire career firefighting. And the truth, though, is there are times whenever that is really necessary. There are crises in which you need to be the firefighter. There are literal fires, you know, that need to be fought, but it doesn't move the city forward in a long term, like focused way. So I personally had to learn to step back.
Charisse Deschenes (15:03)
Yes.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:12)
get really clear on my values, use that as my compass, just, I can't come back to it enough. It's always about adaptability. Every position that I was in, I was handed some unknown responsibility that was coming down the pipeline in my roles in city management.
all of a sudden I might be responsible for the library or I might be responsible to be the community development director or I responsible for COVID response. I mean, it was just like you just never knew what was coming down the pike. And while that's one of the things that energized me and it kept things fresh and exciting and new,
you could also get really stuck in that constant firefighting and not taking that time to do the visioning. So I did, I had to learn about stepping out. I think, you know, we talked about that a lot of getting out of town and going to those conferences, those were a way to start thinking about that strategic long-term sort of leadership that I really wanted to live into without getting so stuck in the fires and that constant sort of dopamine rush that you get by.
by putting out the fires and being reactive. So yeah, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (16:23)
Yeah, yeah, the true leadership happens when you
are doing that Q2 work and leading together to set the foundation for how you move forward. That's really so important to the work we do. another question for you. So you've said that the hardest part of leadership is the personal battle. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
that impacts you on a personal level.
Kellye Mazzoli (16:49)
Yeah, such a good question. So.
When I say that, I really think that once you get to this leadership role, whenever you get to like your, you know, the professional, it's really easy to think that it's the professional things that are holding you back in leadership. But once you're at a leadership level of being a director or being a city manager or assistant city manager, once you're up there, I don't think that the battle is professional as much as it really is personal. That's where you have the biggest gains.
And what I mean is that I know what it's like to feel isolated. I mean, I felt that way growing up. There were plenty of moments where I felt like it was it was all on me, even as a kid. I was also an only child. And so I knew what was going on with our finances whenever I was growing up, probably at a level most kids didn't even like have to think about. You know, and so I just think like.
Charisse Deschenes (17:41)
Right.
Kellye Mazzoli (17:44)
sure, like it feels very isolating. It feels very lonely whenever you're the only one sort of carrying all of that. And you have to work through those sort of things, those sort of that feeling of that responsibilities. And I'd say like, look, I, I had it at least on paper, had everything figured out. I was achieving all the things. Everything looked great. Big responsibilities. I had made my seat at the table. I was leaning in, so to speak, right? There was a big push at that point in my career to be the
person leaning in. And I was. And honestly, I would say I had a really successful career. But to be really, really honest with you, Charisse, I mean, I was coming home completely drained, meaning I couldn't even or I wasn't really willing, not that I couldn't, but I wasn't really willing to make any more decisions. The decision fatigue was through the roof at the height of my career where I came home
Charisse Deschenes (18:34)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:40)
And my partner would ask me, what do you want to eat? I'd be like, I don't care. Like anything, whatever it is you put in front of me is what I'm going to eat. I just was done making decisions. And those are the type of internal personal battles that we're not talking about as leaders, right? Where is the safe space for me to say I'm tired of making decisions?
Charisse Deschenes (18:46)
Ha
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:06)
I'm really
feeling the weight and consequences of my decisions. I'm getting in my own head about it. I'm taking things personally. Like you don't say those things out loud. If you start doing that sitting at the leadership table, it's just like, is anybody gonna follow me? Like I can't do that. And I'll say, you know, this is, I guess it's technically burnout, right? I didn't have that term back then. I didn't know what burnout was. I wasn't aware of it.
Charisse Deschenes (19:27)
Sure. Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:34)
And I would say this, think that if I were to define burnout back then, I would just think like, it's just that you're working too many hours, but that's not what it's about. So.
Charisse Deschenes (19:41)
Yeah, yeah. It's not that you
can't make a decision about what food you're going to eat. It's, know, now, now what is that today? Right? Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:49)
Right, right. Yes,
exactly. And so yeah, what is it today? Well, I think it's really about whenever who you really are and who you think that you have to be in the role or roles, right? Women have multiple roles that they have at any given time. And I was a caregiver at one point during my career that when those aren't congruent,
when there is a disconnect between all of the things, all of the pressures, like you feel really fragmented and all over the place, that's where the burnout is, right? It's not just a pure like, are you working more than 40 hours a week? Are you working 80 hours a week? 80 hours a week, you must be burned out. Like, it's not the busy, it's not the busy. think we, I mean, I was plenty busy, but anyway, I just, really think that that's why resilience is so critical.
Charisse Deschenes (20:31)
You're right, yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (20:41)
It's not toughness, it's not pretending that everything is fine, but instead having somebody that you can go to and you can talk to to process through things without any kind of judgment. Like you have to learn how to renew yourself every single day. That's the internal battle. You have to learn how to let your emotions in without being totally consumed by them. It's not, you don't let them take over
Charisse Deschenes (21:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (21:08)
but you also don't shove them down to where you don't experience them. And that's sort of the thing that I learned through my career.
Charisse Deschenes (21:16)
Well, it sounds like you learned that through your career and through your, you know, your formative years as well. You know, you're wise beyond your years because of your personal experiences as well.
So fast forward a bit. Those early experiences clearly helped define you and they really set forth the determination in you. And that really shows up in the way that you've built your business. So what made you transition out of city management and into coaching, Kellye?
Kellye Mazzoli (21:48)
I transitioned because I realized I could make a bigger impact. I realized I had a coach of my own, but the interesting thing was I felt like I spent half of my time trying to explain this wonderful world of city management because it's unique and the dynamics and the politics and all the things and.
Charisse Deschenes (22:04)
you
Kellye Mazzoli (22:10)
I wasn't getting as much out of the coaching. It would have been nice to have had a coach that had the background and the experience. I was like, that's me. I'm the person who wants to provide that stability, who wants to support my colleagues, who wants like, I want that for everyone. And I could have such a bigger reach. And by coaching and working with
all of these city leaders across the United States and Canada. I have clients in Canada. Sounds so weird. I'm international. It's weird to say, but yeah, that by doing that, I just have such a bigger reach and a bigger impact. And I can give people that stability that I guess I was seeking as a young woman, as a young girl. And I can do that through my career. And I have such a passion for the profession.
Charisse Deschenes (22:48)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (23:08)
and for what city management is and what it stands for and what we do and the impact that we create. just couldn't see myself not coaching people in the city management world. I thought about it. I mean, I have plenty of other groups of people that I'm connected with. You know, I'm a military spouse. So there's a whole there's so many other people, but I just could not not be connected still to city management. So much a piece of who I am. And I see the value.
Charisse Deschenes (23:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it sounds like you've because of when you walked into the room and you, you knew that there was more, you know, you had that emotional intelligence and you realized that maybe I'm going to be good at this other thing as well. And I'm really going to give back to the people that mean the most to me. And that's really inspiring to hear. but also experience as a leader that has worked with you. So
I appreciate you and thank you for taking that, making that step and that change because it's meant the world to me as well. So I appreciate you there. like thinking forward, what aspirations do you have as you look ahead there?
Kellye Mazzoli (24:07)
Thank you.
I just want to keep helping people. I want to help people in the ways that they want to be helped. I want to put more value into the world, more good things. so I think part of that is this podcast that we have that we're doing. It's a stretch for us. And we've talked about that plenty. But it is really one of the ways that I feel like we can give back by having these conversations. And then, you know, also in developing
you know, just places where people can get that connection, get that support and get that coaching and get it from those who understand where they're coming from. So as far as aspirations go, I'm hoping to create like a community, a network where we're learning and growing together, a whole big group of city management professionals.
Charisse Deschenes (25:04)
So that's so amazing. Looking forward to that as well. so I'm going to shift gears again for us a little bit. I've had the chance to see you up close and work together with you in this podcast and other ways. And one thing I've noticed is that you always bring your A game. And thinking about what you do, what does that look like behind the scenes?
Kellye Mazzoli (25:18)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (25:32)
What does it take for you to show up strong every single day, every time?
Kellye Mazzoli (25:37)
Well, would say is that just because I make it look like I show up strong every single day, I'm not sure that I do, but thank you for noticing my A game. I do try. You know, I mean, it goes back to my story, right? I just never felt like I had any wiggle room to fail. And good or bad, that is just kind of who I am as a person. My thoughts tend to be focused around
success around achievement, around being the best version of myself and bringing that to others. That that's how I'm going to have my impact and that's how I'm going to leave my lasting legacy. That's how I'm going to help other people is through being that person. Now,
That's to say, you have to have things outside of work. I do work a lot. I'm a very serious person. I'm sorry that this interview is so serious, but it really is who I am. I'm really authentically giving you insight into who I am. So I'm very serious about my business. I'm very serious about the profession. And the way that I do that, the way that I show up, it has to do with, I take care of myself.
I definitely get more sleep now than I did in the past. I neglected sleep for much through my career.
I know now how important it is to have that rest. My biggest asset is my brain. And it was the same in city management, it's the same in my own business. Being a solo entrepreneur, it sort of all filters through me and it all has to go through that brain. So I have to take care of my brain. So I am very cognizant about what I put in my body. I'm more cognizant of making sure that I'm getting my seven to eight hours of sleep.
every single night because I know now that whenever I show up without enough recharge, basically, like, you don't get the best version of me. And it's super, super important that I'm able to listen to my clients and what they're going through. It's important that I'm able to be empathetic, that I'm able to hold space for them. And that only comes whenever I'm in my best.
Charisse Deschenes (27:22)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (27:46)
version of myself. But all that to say, I process my emotions. I journal. I drink more water now. It's not glamorous, but those are the things. And then I seek out activities. I do have one activity kind of that's outside of work. Although a lot of my work, feels like fun, like recording this podcast. But no, I play pool.
Charisse Deschenes (27:55)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (28:09)
So I play billiards, play eight ball and nine ball on a ladies league on Mondays. And I have a team that I play with on Fridays. And so I do that every single week. And so I'm an amateur pool player and I have a lot of fun with that. And that helps me recharge. But at the same time, it's so funny because it still fits into my personality, which is that I'm a little competitive. I like to be the best. I like to improve.
Charisse Deschenes (28:30)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (28:35)
And so there's opportunity for me to lean into who I am as a person. And it very much is an individual sport, but then there is a team impact, which I really appreciate that. And I just, I love the team that I play with as well. And we just laugh and we support each other and it's really a fun time, a recharging time. So I get that every Monday and Friday.
Charisse Deschenes (28:55)
That sounds very, very fun. ⁓ And remind me never to play pool with you.
Kellye Mazzoli (28:57)
Mm-hmm.
I'm amateur
pool player. Amateur. Amateur.
Charisse Deschenes (29:03)
amateur, but still.
But you know, I asked you, you know, you you just show up, right? But honestly, it's all intentional. You have intentionally set up a life that helps you succeed every day from the moment that you get up to the moment you go to bed. And you're thinking of all the things that set you up to be a healthy human, including that big brain. But that
That is really such an important part of leading from the times where we might have been in that moment where we couldn't even decide what we wanted to eat for dinner to now you've shifted gears so much and changed how you just focus and direct your life. So that is inspiration right there. Well, thank you.
Kellye Mazzoli (29:51)
thank you. Yeah, I am very intentional.
I'm intentional about every dollar that comes into our household and how we we budget our finances. I'm intentional about the food that I eat this year is no sugar, no flour. And I'm not perfect at it, but I've been pretty good at it. When I make a choice, I try to be really intentional. And I think, again, it just comes back to that. I decided that I had control of my own destiny.
I decided that I get to create the stability that I want. And that's what I do.
Charisse Deschenes (30:23)
every single day. So we've touched base on where you've come from, the shifts you've made in your life, the work you're doing today, and I want to close by looking forward. So this question is, is there a mantra or a lesson that you'd want to pass on to others, especially the next generation of leaders?
Kellye Mazzoli (30:43)
I don't know that I have a mantra. But what I would like to pass on and what I hope people walk away from this is that ultimately you craft the life that you want and you craft the leadership life that you want. And you should only do leadership if it's worth it. Right. And you get to decide what that is and you get to decide how that looks. So be intentional.
make sure that your journey in the end that you can look back and you can reflect and go, man, that was that was really worth it. So even all the hard times, even all the trials, tribulations and the struggles and the challenges, I still look back and I go, yes, that journey was worth it. I chose that. I was intentional. My circumstances never defined me from day one. They never defined me and they still don't today. I get to decide. So. That's what I'd leave you with.
Charisse Deschenes (31:36)
Thank you, Kellye. Well, this has been another episode of the Unmuted Podcast, and we really thank you for joining us. And if you want to like and subscribe, we'd love to hear from you. And just take a moment to give us a thumbs up.
Kellye Mazzoli (31:36)
Thanks, Charisse. I had a great time.
