Charisse Deschenes (00:35)
Welcome to Unmuted. I'm Charisse and today I want to start us off with something personal. We're going to talk about stay or go values, culture, and misalignment. The crossroads of leadership should you stay or should you go? So there was a season in my career when everything felt aligned. The council, the staff, the community, it was like we were all rowing in the same direction. I'd go home at night. I'd be tired but proud. I'd feel
Like work mattered and the culture around me supported that. So then I had a situation where it shifted and decisions were being made in ways that didn't really sit right with me. Conversations behind closed doors started to feel heavy and the trust that had been built I felt started to erode. I remember one morning staring at the mirror at myself when I was getting ready and
thinking, I still stay here and lead authentically? Or is it time for me to go? And that's what we're digging into today, the messy middle, stay or go, and how our values and culture around us shape that decision.
Kellye Mazzoli (01:47)
Charisse, I love this idea of a mirror moment that you had whenever you just like looked in the mirror and you asked yourself that question. And I want to say that it's, you called it out because hindsight's always 20-20, right? Like we can look back now and you're you're you're far away from that time when you were staring at yourself in the mirror, but you still remember it right as that that
Charisse Deschenes (01:52)
You
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (02:13)
It's not a giant sign. was really a small start. So it sounds to me like it really it was a subtle voice and it was really the first time you're noticing that a decision isn't sitting right, that the staff meeting, you kind of feel your stomach tightening or it's a late night when you replay a conversation and you think.
this isn't me. Like I'm not even saying words that are normal words that I would say or I'm not reacting in the way that I normally would. But I would just say like that mirror moment. It's like it's a real subtle voice. It's a real subtle moment.
Charisse Deschenes (02:51)
Yes, yes, in our bodies they know before our minds do,
I think it felt like showed up in me. felt exhausted. You feel like your mental and physical health isn't quite you anymore. And I had a lot of anxiety in so many different ways. And I think other people also have that experience in those ways and just kind of question, but you know, what is this? But it's the inner voice that's getting louder. It's something, you know, again, doesn't feel quite right.
Does I'm just saying, does this sound familiar to you or anybody else out there?
Kellye Mazzoli (03:22)
Yeah. ⁓ it's so
true. It's so true. Yes. And listeners like, you know, when was the last time your body told you something that your brain did not want to admit? Because I know it happens regularly for my clients. Their bodies are telling them something, but their brain just isn't ready to admit it. And maybe there's tension, there's burnout. You know, the Sunday scaries, the Sunday night dread. I mean, that was that was really real for me.
as well and it's real for many city managers out there.
Charisse Deschenes (03:54)
Yeah, and like when you hear that voice, do you listen to it or do you just push right past it, you know?
Kellye Mazzoli (04:00)
Hmm.
Psychologists actually call this somatic intelligence. And so it's our body's ability to process truths that we're not really ready to face. And ignoring those signals doesn't actually make them go away. It will usually make them louder and louder and louder.
let's talk a little bit about seasons, So I always lean into this idea of seasons. And I think that the hardest part about this conversation, about values and misalignment, is that not every single rough patch actually means it's time to go. So sometimes it really is just a short season.
Charisse Deschenes (04:45)
Yeah, exactly. Like, you you have maybe a tough budget cycle or maybe there's something going on with a council situation that you're dealing with. Even like a difficult relationship, are hard seasons, I think. You can usually weather those, you know, through boundaries and patience, but structural misalignment, I think that's different.
when the culture itself is shifting beneath your feet, you, when fear within your organ, well, the way that I see it is when there's fear in your organization and maybe it's replacing the trust that you've built over time or when transparency starts to disappear, that's not just a season, that's the ground starting to shift under your feet. And it's a sign that there's a foundational piece that's being tested.
Kellye Mazzoli (05:16)
Mm-hmm.
And that test is your values, right? Like if you're compromising them day after day just to function, like it's not seasonal, that is structural and that's very different.
Charisse Deschenes (05:41)
Have you been there? Where are your values? Eroded one small compromise at a time?
Kellye Mazzoli (05:48)
Yeah, think that's a, gosh, that's really a good, that's a good question. And yes, I have been there. And the way that I would describe it, it's sort of like if you have a big pot of soup on the stove and you go to season it. So let's say, you you put a little, pinch of salt in there, and that pinch of salt is one of your values, sort of being eroded away or not being listened to, not being seen, not being heard, and you put a pinch of salt in.
You put one pinch of salt in a big pot of soup on the stove, no big deal. And you can keep doing that and keep doing that and keep doing that. But there is a point where the salt is gonna overpower the entire pot of soup. And in my mind, know, whenever it becomes just like all salt and no soup, like it's not edible anymore. Like you can't do it. And so...
Charisse Deschenes (06:35)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (06:40)
Yeah, I mean, I actually have where it's just like this one little small compromise. It's just little pinches of salt. And it's not a big deal at first until it's just too much. And I think and then all of a sudden you don't really recognize, you know, maybe it's like who you are, but maybe it's just like sort of recognize what your role is in that organization anymore. And I just want to point out, too, is that there's research that supports what
so many of us sense. Engagement is really, really important. And engagement comes from that alignment of your culture and your values. so there is, Gallup has a Q12 employee engagement survey. And I was looking online and I noticed that one of, let's throw in a statistic in there. Highly engaged teams experience substantially lower turnover.
Right. And engagement comes from aligning your culture with people's values, both on an individual as well as an organizational level. So about 21 percent less in a high turnover organization and then 51 percent less in a low turnover one. So we'll include a link in the show notes to to that so you can take a look at the Gallup survey. I think it's really interesting information.
And I will say, you know, I mean, I worked with a leader once who thought that she was really just tired. And we went through this process where we mapped out her days and it started showing up as a pattern that every moment of exhaustion was actually tied to a repeating thing that was happening. And it all tied back in this particular case, a lack of transparency from her Council oddly enough.
And that so the exhaustion wasn't really fatigue. It was literally a misalignment for her. And that's what was exhausting her was every everything that stemmed from this lack of transparency that she had to deal with. So, you know, whenever you start experiencing these different things that sometimes they manifest physically, you know, it's the salty taste to pay attention.
Charisse Deschenes (08:52)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (08:54)
That's when you know that it's not just a season, there's actually a structural misalignment with your value or values. And I wanna offer a couple of reflection questions for our audience who is wondering, is this really what I'm dealing with? And I would say the first question that you should be answering and take some time to journal on this.
The first question is, what is one value you feel you had to compromise recently? Is there a value recently you've had to compromise? Just one. And if the answer to that is yes, whatever that value is, then the next question is, was it a one-time thing?
Or maybe there's a pattern there. But take a moment to think about it and to look at it and to assess it, just like we would with anything in our profession, right? We wouldn't just make like an instantaneous decision. We would take a look at it and we would analyze it. So this is how you would analyze something like.
Charisse Deschenes (09:54)
Those are really powerful questions, Kellye. And it makes me think about, OK, well, should we maybe shift a little bit and talk about the reckoning about, should I stay or go? Having taken a look deeply at yourself and looking into those questions. So this is where the reckoning comes in.
Okay, so some some let's go sometimes Staying is the courageous choice You set new boundaries you anchor in your values and you weather that storm, right?
Kellye Mazzoli (10:12)
Yeah, let's go. Let's reckon.
Sometimes going is the courageous choice too, though. Walking away doesn't necessarily make you weak. It makes you unwilling to lean in ways that violate who you are. So I think either decision, what we're saying here, is courageous.
Charisse Deschenes (10:40)
Yeah, no, I think you're right. I've personally been in both places and I'd stayed through the stormy season, you know, where I thought that I could make a difference and the culture might turn and I could weather that storm. And I've also left knowing that my leadership maybe couldn't survive a compromise. And I felt like in both choices, there was grief.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:04)
Yes, yes, the grief of leaving is very real. You're not just giving up a paycheck. I mean, in this instance, you're giving up an entire community. You're giving up an organization of colleagues. You're giving up a rhythm of life that you've established. And we've talked a lot about this. Sometimes you're even giving up an identity that you're quite attached to.
Charisse Deschenes (11:30)
Yeah, that's so true. And I feel like all of those things that you just said, I've experienced very deeply in leaving an organization before. you know, there's the grief and staying too long and losing yourself a little by little. And one way to think about that is a bank account. So each compromise is a little bit of a withdrawal from that account.
you know, seasons take withdrawals, but the account rebounds, right? And then like the structural misalignment though, it's kind of like fraud on that account and it drains your balance until you're completely overdrawn.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:03)
you
Yes. And I think that's why this decision really is so hard, because it takes courage either way. one of the tools that I call the three P's lens, just because, you know, we got to have a name for it. But like you need to look at three things, the people, the principles and the payoff. And it's through these three P's that you can decide whether or not you want to stay or go.
So the first P is for people. Are these relationships salvageable or are they fundamentally broken? So if the people relationships are your problem, then you're going to ask yourself that question. If the relationships you don't think are salvageable, if they are beyond repair and they're fundamentally broken, well then it's probably, that's a big hit. That's one P.
But let's say you think that the relationships are salvageable and maybe they're not as broken and you would like to try and fix then great. Okay, so maybe that's a vote for stay, not go. Well, whenever you look at principles as the second P, you have to look through your principles. Are your values intact here or are they being chipped away? Right, so if your values are not intact and they are being chipped away, maybe it's time to go. So if you have both
you know, relationships that are no longer salvageable, your values are being chipped away, people and principles, you've got two votes. It's time to go. But let's say you don't really think that they're being chipped away, that your principles, you know, yes, maybe there's like one time that they were misaligned, then it isn't a vote to go. Maybe it's still like, it's still salvageable. The relationships are salvageable. The principles, you can bring them back in. You can set those boundaries like you were talking about and stay.
And then I think the third P and lens that you want to see things through is the payoff. So is the personal and professional cost actually sustainable for you? No matter what we're choosing to do, there is a cost to it and it might be personal and it might be professional. And so the question is, is the payoff actually worth it and is it sustainable for you? So if you have a, if the people
Charisse Deschenes (14:17)
you
Kellye Mazzoli (14:28)
Like the relationships are just not salvageable. If your principles are have been chipped away, they're not intact anymore. And the personal and professional cost is too much. It's time to go, right? And if you have a mix of those, I mean, then it's then I think you have to go deeper, If you have a mix of those, like maybe maybe the relationships are worth saving, but the other stuff isn't there. here's what you have to think about.
Charisse Deschenes (14:40)
Yeah, yeah
Kellye Mazzoli (14:51)
I'm gonna give you some journal prompts because this is a very personal decision and I think you have to do this personal seeking and you know I don't like to give homework, Charisse. So I don't do this very often but I think these are really important questions. And the first is what would be the true cost of staying?
And then what would be the real risk of leaving? You need to outline what the cost of staying is for you. You need to understand what it is that you are giving up. And then you also need to know, like, if you leave, what are the real risk? Not the ones that your brain makes up and makes you worry about, but like the real risk. Like, is, you know, because your brain will tell you, you're going to lose all your money and...
You know, you're never gonna be able to make money again. Well, we know that that's not true. You have real skills, tangible skills that are valued and can apply somewhere else. You can always find another job. So the other thing that you need to ask too is who are you, regardless of where you work or that title that you might be carrying around, that identity, who are you? Because this is gonna help you decide where to go.
And I think one to really sit with is if nothing changes here for the next 12 months, who will I become?
Do you like the person you're gonna become if nothing changes in the next 12 months and you are in the exact same circumstance that you were when you started the year? So those are some of the journal questions that I think are really important if you're at this place where you're like, you've looked at the people, you've looked at the principals, you've looked at the payoff, but you need to dive a little bit deeper. You need to start answering these questions and being really honest with yourself.
Charisse Deschenes (16:01)
Yes.
Such good advice, Kellye.
Let's talk a little bit now about some takeaways from this conversation today. So three that I'm thinking about. One, your body really knows before your brain does. When you tune in, how do you feel? What messages are you hearing or feeling? Number two, test the season versus the structure. A hard season may be weatherable, but structural misalignment erodes you.
And three, either choice, stay or go, can be values aligned. The only wrong choice is pretending that misalignment doesn't exist for you.
Kellye Mazzoli (17:00)
I really, really, really love the last one. Right. So often we think, I know I did, but leaders will think that leaving means failure. But staying isn't automatically noble. Right. Because then nobody would ever leave. We would all just stay and we'd all just be noble and everything would be... No. No. Both can be really authentic if they are grounded in your personal values. So...
One thing that's really important to remember is that fear is part of this process. And it doesn't mean that you're going to make the wrong move. It means that you are standing at a very meaningful threshold. When your brain starts getting fearful of what the consequences are going to be from staying or going, it is literally just a signal that you are about to make an important decision. And our brains are always looking out for our survival.
So one conversation that I have often with clients is that courage is not the absence of fear, but it's the choice to act even with it. Courage is acting even when you're fearful. Courage doesn't come because fear doesn't exist. It's acting in the face of it. So I just want to give that to our audience. Yeah, I really love that. Both are
Both are right.
Charisse Deschenes (18:22)
Yeah. Can I, can I add one more layer to this, Kellye?
Kellye Mazzoli (18:25)
Please, please, please. Yes, yes. What else do you got? Ooh, yes. This is a good one.
Charisse Deschenes (18:27)
So health, right? Just focus
on that for a minute. Because when values and culture are misaligned, it doesn't just hurt your leadership, it hurts your body. It hurts your body, right? I asked earlier how it feels and posing those questions. When you know that things are off and you continue down that path, it starts to make an impact on your health.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:55)
Absolutely, yes, I have seen that. It comes in the form of stress, maybe headaches, anxiety, sleepless nights for me. That's whenever I know it's really gotten there and that the costs are really real.
Charisse Deschenes (19:07)
Yeah, yeah, for me, and when I finally listened to my health, I realized that my body was screaming, your values, they're out of alignment. And that was one of the nudges along with, you know, health signals, like anxieties, those, it wasn't just that, it was, yeah, the health.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:20)
Yeah. So you mean it wasn't just it wasn't just the health, but I mean,
it really was like a deeper you have now been able to look back on that and connect that your health was really a signal that your values were not aligned.
Charisse Deschenes (19:32)
Yes.
Yeah,
absolutely. I knew it at the time, like you were talking about somatic learning, right? I knew. I really did. knew. And that little voice was pretty loud on my shoulder.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (19:50)
when I make the decision. But yeah, I mean, I think that that's one of the things that I've been working on in the last year is getting my health back and getting my myself aligned. So thank you for asking about that. It was important. And so I want go back to the listeners. And since you give it, you're giving out a couple of journal prompts. I have another one to add to it.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:50)
Right.
You
Charisse Deschenes (20:14)
So what is your health telling you right now about your leadership environment?
Kellye Mazzoli (20:18)
That's a good one. Yeah, what is it? What is it really telling you? Tune into your body. It's telling you stuff. Your body is very resilient and it's very smart and it's very powerful. So I love that you were able to connect that the things that were going on with your health and with your body were actually connected with your values and your alignment because they seem so far apart, but they're really, really not.
Well, while we're giving homework, I'm gonna give just a little bit more, just a little bit more. I think there are some really tactical steps that you can take right now. So if you are choosing to stay in a situation where you're contemplating the stay or go, but you're choosing to stay, just make a decision first of all. If you're choosing to stay, then I want you to set one clear boundary this week that will protect your health.
It's crucial that even in the midst of the circumstances that are happening around you, that you are able to continue making good decisions for yourself and for your health. So set that one clear boundary this week and protect your health at all costs. And if you're choosing to go, then the next step for you is to set up your 90 day transition plan. Talk about what kind of support that you're gonna need, what kind of savings that you need. Remember that money is just numbers.
There is a number that you need in your bank account to move on. Figure out what that number is. Don't let your brain just sit there and go, we don't have enough, we don't have enough, we don't have enough. Figure out what it is and start saving that amount of money so that you can go with some peace of mind that you have money to pay your bills for as long as you need for your transition. And in that 90 day transition plan, the other piece of it too is what next steps will help you leave in a good way.
How can you close that door, not slam it?
Charisse Deschenes (22:10)
And I just want to add, don't, do not go it alone.
Share your reflections with a mentor or coach and or a peer that you trust and take the time to be around the people that can see your misalignment even before you're willing to maybe name that yourself. It's good to have that peer, coach or mentor around in order for you to feel supported and like you can make that next step in your life and your career.
Kellye Mazzoli (22:44)
Wholeheartedly, I agree that if you find yourself in this place of should I stay or should I go that you are not alone. Every leader faces this crossroad. It would be weird if we didn't.
Charisse Deschenes (22:57)
Yes, and whatever you decide, your values are your compass. They'll guide you through the storm and into what's next.
Kellye Mazzoli (23:04)
Thanks for being here with us on Unmuted. Please share this episode with somebody who might be wrestling with the question, should I stay or should I go?
