Charisse Deschenes (00:31)
Welcome back to Unmuted. Today, we're asking a big question. What does it really mean to live a productive life? For most of modern history, productivity has been measured at work. Hours logged, deadlines met, meetings attended. But that's only part of what we are or who we are. After hours, many of us step into other rules. We are cooks, we're caregivers, we're showing up for friends, neighbors, supporting people and volunteering in our communities. So those roles take energy, creativity and commitment, yet they rarely get counted as productive.
Kellye Mazzoli (01:09)
And that's the through line of today's episode, right? Charisse that productivity isn't just about what happens at the office, but it's really about integrating all the roles we play. So that might be a worker, caregiver, a friend, a neighbor, a citizen. And we really want to explore today what that looks like and why the current system actually falls short and what it might mean to redesign that work in life so that they actually support one another. So today in our episode, we're going to review some key messages of thought leaders.
We're going to be providing some challenges for listeners. And by the end of the episode, if that's okay, we'll leave you with a few takeaways. So let's start with Celeste Headley's book, Do Nothing, which really captures where we are as a culture. She writes that we glorify busyness as if exhaustion proves our worth. We've all been in conversations where that badge of honor is how many emails you've answered or maybe how late you've stayed online.
But busyness doesn't actually equal value, You can push yourself all day long and still feel very empty because especially when the other parts of your life, like your family and your health and your friendships and your community are neglected, it really gets difficult.
Charisse Deschenes (02:25)
I think that that really resonates with me, Kellye. I think about the invisible work that we do outside the, you know, we talked about earlier, all the things that you commit to, but like cooking, grocery shopping, parents that are doing supervision, homework, and check-ins with aging parents and neighbors. It's all work, but our culture doesn't really count it as productivity at all. know, ⁓ often those other roles are really what define us most deeply.
So the challenge for listeners this week, Kellye, ⁓ is to write down one thing that you do outside of work each day that took effort, care, or creativity. At the end of the week, look at that list and notice how much of your life that you've been undervaluing.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:11)
I think that sounds like a great listener's challenge for the week.
Charisse Deschenes (03:13)
Yeah,yeah, yeah. And we have a number of things we're covering this week. So I just wanted to refer to, to Arlie Russell Holschild's study. This is ⁓ from the book, The Timebind. we found something striking. For many people, work actually is, feels easier at home. And the why behind that, is because home has become like your second shift. So even in households where both of our partners are working, the cooking, the cleaning, the caregiving still has to happen and that work didn't disappear, it just got stacked on top.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:56)
And maybe even the workplaces haven't quite kept up, With so-called flexibility, the culture though still rewards the person who's always on, who answers those emails at 10 p.m., who sacrifices their personal life or their professional presence. And that culture actually punishes anyone with responsibilities outside of work. And it tells us that a full life makes us less committed to the company or to the city in a lot of our.
Charisse Deschenes (03:59)
Right.
Kellye Mazzoli (04:25)
listeners instances, but really I think the truth is opposite. A full life really makes us more grounded and more resilient and often more effective when all the things are integrated. So when you have city managers who are pulled in many directions at once, I think that they find it very difficult to find that kind of flexibility, And I mean, I have a client where I was talking with her.
And we were just talking about how. It's so important to have the things outside of the day to day grind at work and by having the family and by enjoying the kids and their sports and all the things that go on, all the richness of life outside of it helps her actually stay grounded in the present moment with what's happening at work. So I would say.
Charisse Deschenes (05:20)
Yeah,
yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (05:20)
The next challenge for our listeners is to look at your schedule this week and see where you are giving time just to look committed. Like where are you staying late or staying online in some way simply for appearances? It's that whole idea of performative leadership where we're staying late or we're emailing late or we're staying online so that people can see it. And I want you to ask yourself really honestly,
In that time, are you really being productive? Are you really providing value or are you just being performative? Are you putting on that performance?
Charisse Deschenes (05:57)
I like that question, Kellye. really think that, you know, if you look back over, you know, the time that you were doing more city management work, I know I would pick up the phone at multiple hours and just try to answer one more email because it made it easier for the next time that I was in the office. Um, I don't know if you've ever experienced that when you were working, but I know I sometimes got pulled in at 10, 11, 12, sometimes 1 a.m.
Kellye Mazzoli (06:15)
Mm-hmm.
Hey, mean, you know what? I am gonna be really honest here. I think that there are times where I can recall making sure to send that email right before I left the office at say 8.30 at night, simply because it's like, I want people to know that I'm here and I'm still working and I would send out that last email, hey, right before I go home, here you go. I'm not gonna lie about it. I did do that because I wanted people to understand like I'm working hard.
Charisse Deschenes (06:47)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (06:53)
and it was more performative than it was value driven. Granted, I mean, I didn't do it every single time, right? But there were times where I was like, yeah, if I send this out, then they'll know. Then they'll know that I'm working so hard. I think this leads us into sort of the integration versus balance conversation. And so I wanna talk about a book by David Berkus. He is the author of The Best Team Ever. And I think it has a really helpful reframe.
Charisse Deschenes (06:59)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (07:22)
⁓ where he says balance is the wrong word. Where balance implies the separation between two different things, that there's work on one side and then there's life on the other. And you're like constantly trying to hold this balance steady, but they're all very, very separate, In order to have this balance, you've got to have work on one side and you've got to have your life on the other. But life doesn't separate that neatly.
Your work is a lot of your life. I think, especially with how connected we are in city management to the work itself, I mean, it really does become part of your life. It's really better to think about integration, where we integrate and we design work to fit into our life. So I don't think it's a good the other way around. I think we need to be really cognizant of...
the words that we use because they do matter. And so for always telling our brain that we're seeking this work-life balance, our brain automatically thinks of the scales and the balance that we're trying to create and it separates out or tries to start separating out work from life like they're two distinct entities. And I think that's why the work-life balance thing is so hard and difficult for most of us.
⁓ And instead, if we start thinking about how do they integrate together and how do they overlap one another and work with one another, then I think your brain starts going to figuring that.
Charisse Deschenes (08:51)
Yeah, I think that's so true, Kellye. And it's also where outcome based thinking comes in. So if leaders measured results instead of hours, people could organize their day around what matters most. imagine like, you know, a work week that's aligned with your school schedules and your caregiving needs with the community kind of rhythms, right? ⁓ So that integration, you don't have to split yourself in two.
You're whole, you're all the time you, right? And yes, we do realize that this particular statement means a complete paradigm shift for additional work at the front end for managers maybe because they have to help staff reorganize the way that they do work. They're aiming for those goals. Managers need to have to, they need to be able to build that trust with their network of employees.
to do that work in a different way and redesigning these processes for success in an outcome-based way is a way that you can think about it instead of the time-based framework that we currently use today. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (10:03)
Mm-hmm. Yes, 100%.
Charisse Deschenes (10:07)
So a challenge for the listeners today. Block out one hour this week for something outside of work that really matters to you. And you protect it like you'd protect a board meeting. So see what shifts when you honor that commitment as part of your productivity.
Kellye Mazzoli (10:28)
I bet that will give listeners some real insight into where they're putting their time and their attention.
Charisse Deschenes (10:37)
You know, we were talking about that, ⁓ kind of the work-life balance and integration. And it made me think about, you know, what's really going on in pop culture today and the, excuse me, the show, Severance. ⁓ I don't know if you've seen it, but it kind of reminded me that, you know, the show Severance is perfect, right? ⁓ It's kind of an extreme metaphor. And in that world,
Kellye Mazzoli (10:53)
Yes. Perfect example.
Charisse Deschenes (11:04)
If you haven't seen it, workers split their lives and split their brains into two different sections. One's the work self who never ever sees the family or daylight for that matter. And the life self who never knows what's accomplished at work. And so completely two different lives that they lead ⁓ just makes an interesting connection as we ⁓ get into this episode a little bit.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:32)
that is a really good, I hope our listeners have seen Severance. I think it's on Apple TV and I've watched all of it. I binged it. ⁓ I was late to the game, but I am caught up now. And it is truly haunting. And I think that what is so interesting, I watched it as sort of an expose, as sort of like a better understanding of the human psyche.
Whenever you try to split yourself into those two different identities, that life, you know, the person who lives the outside and then you have the person, the any who lives inside of work, there's like outside of work and inside of work and they're completely separate and they don't know anything that's going on from the others. It is really. It really is what we're trying to do with this idea of work life balance. And so I think it exposes the flaw.
in that idea. And if we pretend that we can totally sever our work and our life, we will lose our humanity because you cannot clock out of being a parent, right? Even when you're at work, you're still a parent and you're still a partner. And the same way that you're still a community member. And just because you logged in for a meeting, that doesn't go away. And that integration really does matter because you are a whole person. You are not two person like in severance.
So I think the challenge here is to ask yourself, where in your life do you feel like you're living these two separate identities? Do you have one at work and then one outside of it? Are you trying to live as two different people? And if that's the case, if you do think that there is some separation there and you really are working at this balance thing, what is one small way though that you can actually bring those two closer together? What is a safe way for you to sort of integrate the two?
Charisse Deschenes (12:57)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (13:27)
That leads us into the next piece, which is the community role. And so I think that this conversation really isn't just about your work and your home life, but it's also about your community life too. And I think a lot of people have heard of Robert Putnam, but I will just mention like his popular book, Bowling Alone, documented the decline of civic life.
There are fewer people here who are joining clubs and volunteering and participating in their neighborhood groups in that whole sort of that next space, Where it really matters because it's civic life. And when that starts to fray, we start losing connections and that loss of connection translates into sort of a loss of trust and even maybe a loss of meaning.
And you really get those from being connected into your community. So I just wanted to mention that one.
Charisse Deschenes (14:27)
And I would say in addition to that, Kellye, Eric Erickson's model of development says that adulthood is defined by giving back, mentoring, contributing beyond yourself. So if productivity is only defined by what's happening in the office, then we undervalue the very things that sustain our democracy and our humanity.
Like really think about that, especially in today's society and what, you know, there's a lot of division and going on. And it, I think bowling alone came out what, like 15 years ago or so, and it was really starting to highlight that. And it's only declined. And then, you know, with the pandemic and COVID, you know, people are still staying home more and more and not participating and doing, you know, getting involved in civic activities.
So I really think that when we look at that closely, we're at an even more kind of defining moment today if we don't take that time to give back in our own communities. So I do have another challenge for our listeners. choose one way to engage in your community this month outside of your duty as a public servant. Maybe volunteer, mentor.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:29)
for sure.
Charisse Deschenes (15:43)
attend a local meeting or check in with a neighbor and just consider that part of your productive life.
So I'm going to transition to systemic change and out of the office, Kellye. Out of the office. So Charlie Wartzel and Anne Helen Peterson wrote a book, Out of Office. And they argue that remote and hybrid work gave us a chance to rethink everything, right? So yeah, like me too. And then.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:56)
I like out of the office. Tell me more.
Mm-hmm. It really did. I know it did for me.
Charisse Deschenes (16:20)
If you think about the systems like that we've created or recreated when we came back from COVID, it seems like what we want to do is just put all the pieces together in the exact same way that they were before and working in those hours, back to back meetings. And then like the way that you do that online is, you're, putting the green dots on Slack, but you're not, you're, you're using the same system to work at, from home that you did to work from work.
Kellye Mazzoli (16:43)
You
Charisse Deschenes (16:50)
And we really need to kind of shift that thinking if we want, ⁓ you know, this whole balance, not balance, but integration that we've been talking about.
Kellye Mazzoli (17:03)
think too, has a lot to do with control. Right? And we're really sort of focused. It's like we want to see those green dots. We want to see these things. It's the busyness again and this idea of control if we know where people are and what they're doing. But the point is, is that trust matters more than control. We have to trust our workforce to meet the needs of the organization that we're in.
Charisse Deschenes (17:07)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (17:32)
And productivity really honestly maybe shouldn't be measured by FaceTime. Maybe productivity should be measured by outcomes. Now, I think we learned that FaceTime is a really important piece of what we need as organizations, as individuals and people in our work lives. We do need that FaceTime. We do need that connection with one another.
that does not equate to productivity. So thinking about productivity being measured in outcomes and not in face time, I think is really, really crucial. And then I think also too, harping back on that trust piece is that the culture, know, people can live whole lives, they can do excellent work, they can still also coach soccer, they can care for their family, they can serve their communities, they can do it all at the same time. It can be integrated.
And that really is integration at its best. But there's just this whole idea that you can't be excellent at work and be an excellent caregiver or an excellent parent or an excellent soccer coach, Like it's just this whole idea you can't be great at both. And so I think integrating it is key and that you can be excellent at work and you can do those other things in your life as well.
Charisse Deschenes (18:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:00)
that they can go hand in hand. That leads us to our next challenge. I want you to imagine a workplace where the people we admire most aren't the ones staying the latest, but they are the ones that are contributing meaningfully and living full lives. Like, what would it take to start building that culture where you are? And really honestly, paying attention to the value that people are bringing to the table. That is the key.
Charisse Deschenes (19:04)
ha ha.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:29)
It's the value, it's the outcomes. It's not just the FaceTime.
Charisse Deschenes (19:34)
Right. Kellye, I think that is such an important point when you really break that down. And I know that I individually have been in the room and thinking about that value and how those outcomes are more important. And it is a real challenge, though, when you're taking that on as a team and everything's changing and you need to do all the Q2 work to really sit down with your team and say,
OK, we're changing this. This is what it's going to be different. We're not just saying you got to clock in and clock out. You're saying, we need these outcomes, as I mentioned earlier. And I think that's a real challenge for any organization to really take hold of, because there's risk involved. There's some legal work that you might need to do. There's some ⁓ trust, like you said, that you have to consider in your organization. And you're really shifting your culture
tremendously away from something that's been so common. So I love that you asked that question. ⁓
Kellye Mazzoli (20:37)
Exactly.
And I will add to that too, is that it really shifts us away from this idea that somebody sitting at a desk for 40 hours a week equates to value. Like it's not about sitting at the desk for 40 hours each week. That's not where the value comes from. That's not how we individually each contribute. That is just a, that's a small piece. You don't need to be sitting at the desk to provide value. And that is a different way.
Charisse Deschenes (20:49)
Right.
Kellye Mazzoli (21:07)
to think about things and especially as we go back into the office after having this, you know, people went home and they were trying to do all of the things and integrate all of the things and they did, it looks different. But now they're back in the office. How have we tried to go back? How are we trying to fit it? It's like, okay, that person sits at this desk for 40 hours a week, therefore they get this paycheck. It's like, no, let's get back to values. And I think it always suffers whenever the organization cannot point.
to their key initiatives, like what is it that you need people to accomplish? You have to be very, very clear on your strategies. You have to be very, very clear on your KPIs and you have to be able to communicate those to your employees and your staff. And if you're not doing that, then how can they add the value you want them to add to the organization if they don't know what it is that you're asking them to do? So I think it goes up.
Charisse Deschenes (21:46)
Mm-hmm.
guess.
Kellye Mazzoli (22:03)
Right? We have to be good strategizers. We have to know what it is that we want to accomplish and it can't be vague. And whenever we give that to our employees and they know exactly what they need to do and we give them the latitude and the space to do it, that's when we all like we all benefit. And that is where integration work life integration is actually possible is in that realm. When we start like it's not about just sitting at that desk. It's not about just performing leadership.
Charisse Deschenes (22:10)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (22:31)
anymore. It's about the value that we bring to the table and the value that we actually add. So just something to chew on.
Charisse Deschenes (22:36)
Yes, yes.
Nope, that's absolutely right there with you. ⁓ So I'm going to bring this all together and talk about the five insights today that we've discussed in the episode, ⁓ highlighting, busyness doesn't equal value. The system wasn't built for modern lives. Integration matters more than balance. Community is part of who we are.
and trust beats control.
Kellye Mazzoli (23:08)
Fabulous. Those are all excellent. And I wanna also go back over and just make sure that we know what those five challenges are. So just a quick summary. What we've asked you to do today, there are five of them. The first is to track one contribution outside of work that you do each day. The second is to notice where you're giving time when it's just for appearances, when it's turned performative.
Charisse Deschenes (23:10)
Hahaha
Kellye Mazzoli (23:37)
The third challenge is that we are asking you to protect an hour in a week for what matters most to you. Your fourth challenge is to look for ways to bring your whole self into both work and life. And then the fifth challenge is to engage in your community at least once this month. It's so crucial to have some connection to something outside of you.
Charisse Deschenes (24:03)
if productivity included all the roles you play, worker, caregiver, friend, community member, how would you feel, how would your life feel different?
Kellye Mazzoli (24:13)
Yeah, and what would change if our workplaces and our culture all started recognizing that too? I think that's the big question.
Charisse Deschenes (24:21)
That is. Well, thanks again for joining us for another episode of Until next time, stay whole, stay integrated, and stay true to the full life you're living.
Kellye Mazzoli (24:32)
and stay unmuted.
