Charisse Deschenes (00:32)
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Unmute It. In today's episode, we're talking about, I don't give a ding why city leaders need to silence notifications to think clearly. So how many times have you been sitting around the table with your fellow employees and peers and hearing the little dings? know, another email, another text message, bing, bing, bing, and then the attention is taken away from.
Kellye Mazzoli (00:40)
You
Charisse Deschenes (01:01)
conversation and down to the phone and you're left feeling like well I guess I'll wait until that next person gets done with that text message or that email that they're replying to before we completely move forward again. It can take you out of your flow, it can take you out of you know the inspiration that you're having in that particular moment in your conversation. So today we really want to talk about what's really happening when you live in that constant state of notification mode.
and why city leaders can't afford to ignore it.
Kellye Mazzoli (01:33)
Yeah. And I would say, spoiler alert, those little dings aren't just annoying. They are actually changing the way that your brain works and there's really a science to it. And once you know it, you'll never think of a notification in the same way again. So how about we just jump right in, Charisse? I want to start talking about what's happening in your brain and I want to break it down for, for you and the audience. How does that sound?
Charisse Deschenes (02:02)
I would love to hear your neuroscience take Kellye. These moments are, these moments are a little magical for me.
Kellye Mazzoli (02:06)
Awesome.
Yeah. So, so I would just say this is that every time you hear that little ding, your brain is actually going to kick off what's called a dopamine loop. And dopamine isn't just about pleasure. It's actually about anticipation. And so it's the brain's way of saying, Ooh, maybe this is important. Ooh, maybe there's a reward there. And your brain really doesn't care if it's a budget update or if it's a TikTok video.
the loop will work exactly the same. the cost though is that whenever you start switching your attention to check the notification, you don't lose a few seconds. Like you think that ding is just gonna take a few seconds, quick, oh, it's just a quick doot, doot, doot. No. Research actually shows that it takes about 23 minutes on average to get back into deep focused. So like, I mean, really process that 23 minutes.
So if you're bouncing between texts, emails, and alerts all day, you're actually never getting into that state at all where your brain is doing its best work, which is in that flow state. And the part of your brain that handles strategy and judgment is the prefrontal cortex. And I've talked about this a couple of times. That prefrontal cortex that sits right up front, it's what gets taxed the most every time that you're switching. So over time, that constant drain actually leaves you mentally exhausted. I think I've talked about this.
I refer to it as sort of decision fatigue. You feel less creative, maybe even more reactive. You're just looking for the next thing, the next fire to put out. And it's actually the opposite, I think, of what you need whenever you're leading a city, at least in my experience.
Charisse Deschenes (03:45)
Yeah, yeah, Kellye, I think you're absolutely right there, know, setting in that seat. That hits me really hard when you said 23 minutes to get back, you know, get back that time. You'll never get that time back. Get back to where you were. Yeah. And so and you're running the city and you're making high stakes decisions as you say, but you know, what is the impact when you are, you know, listening to that ding and answering the questions and then what
Kellye Mazzoli (03:52)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Just to get back to where you were. Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (04:13)
What does that set like that ripple effect that your staff is feeling because then they feel like they need to do the same thing as soon as that phone rings or bings. No, it doesn't ring anymore. As soon as it bings, then you're on there and you're answering the questions immediately. So before you know it, know the whole organization is running on this chaos and interruptions and then we start calling it burnout. But really it's just that distraction fatigue you're talking about.
Kellye Mazzoli (04:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think it's really important to sort of like hone in on like you're making all these really important decisions about budgets and staffing and all the things that are happening in the city and they have real consequences. But what happens whenever you're doing it with only half brainpower because you're not all totally like invested because you're still sort of like pulled and living in this this other world, this ding land, we'll call it. It's kind of what's happening. So I think.
Two is that a lot of us do mistake burnout is just such a widely used term now to describe a whole bunch of things. And so it can kind of get vague. And I do want to say that your burnout really isn't always about workload. It's really about the mental cost of never being allowed to finish a thought. Right? Like for executives, it's not just your focus.
that's at stake, it is the culture, like you were saying, of your entire organization. So if you're normalizing chaos, I think everyone ends up paying the price. You are modeling that behavior 100%. And if you are the boss, the people are looking to you, everybody around you, everybody on your team, anybody who gets to see the way that you work, and they're going, I need to do the things that he or she is doing in the way that she is doing them, because that's what is expected.
you are actually setting expectations even if it's not in an obvious, direct manner. It's not because you're saying this is the expectation you're setting them in a different way. So I think right now, most people are probably asking like, is this actually possible? know, my first thought was that, but I have to be available.
that the job of a city manager or even a director of public works or whatever role that you're in in the city, the job is 24-7. And I really do get it. I do, I've sat there, we've sat there, we understand that. But the truth is, is that only 95 % of what dings you throughout the day is not urgent. That's the truth. Maybe 5%, maybe five. Yeah, maybe.
Charisse Deschenes (06:22)
Right.
Yeah, so 5 % is important, maybe. And the other
95 %? Uh-uh.
Kellye Mazzoli (06:53)
Yeah, yeah. And we're talking about the dings. We're talking about the emails that come in. We're talking about the Slack, you know, messages that come in if you are one of the organizations that uses that or teams or whatnot, you know, that maybe 5 % are kind of urgent. And the reality is in our business, I feel like if there was anything that was ever really actually urgent, there was a phone call attached to that. Like a phone call. Police chief's calling. Mayor's calling.
Charisse Deschenes (07:17)
Right, right, right, yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (07:21)
You know, like they are calling. So I think let's redefine what being accessible means. Being accessible doesn't actually mean being always on. So let's talk a little bit more neuroscience here. Your brain has what's called a default mode network and it's the system that lights up when you're not interrupted. It's where your creativity.
your problem solving and your innovative thinking come from. So if you want new solutions for tough problems, you will need space where that network can actually activate and process things. And it won't happen if you're responding to all day. Yes, yes, what's the question?
Charisse Deschenes (07:58)
Kellye, I have a question.
So
I always say I don't do public math. It's a joke, but it's one of those things where I feel like I need just a little bit of like that moment and that flow and that like point where I'm just, it's just me in a room and then me and my math, right? So are you, are you kind of aligning like anytime I get a Bing, anytime that, that Bing is taking me out and I'm out of that flow, it's very equal to that. Like just giving yourself that, that time.
Kellye Mazzoli (08:18)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (08:32)
you know, to, to sit alone and, think through things and process and be able to really put thought into something that needs that type of attention. Is that where it kind of fits?
Kellye Mazzoli (08:45)
Yeah, think it's fair to say
that this idea, like if you're doing something publicly, those are reactionary usually. know, like you are reacting and interacting with the people and the things in front of you in a very public facing manner. So you say sitting alone to do your math, which I love the visual. I'm right there with you. I hope some of our listeners are too. It doesn't always look like sitting alone.
Charisse Deschenes (08:54)
Okay.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:11)
and on things in quiet or by yourself. For some people, maybe it's while you're taking a shower or I get, I don't know why I'll, I get so many good ideas whenever I'm taking a hot shower in the mornings. It's just, that is whenever I have some space and clarity to think and all the noise from the rest of the world and all the dings, there are no dings while I'm in the shower. And even if there is one, can't answer it anyway. maybe it's there or maybe even working out.
Charisse Deschenes (09:36)
Well, and you would say that's probably something that
you're doing that alone. Like it's one of those alone moments.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:41)
It
is. It is, it is, but it's not always just the sitting at the desk. Yeah, yeah. Most of the time that is an alone activity. I do not invite my dogs, my little sheebas into the shower. They don't like the shower very much. So anyway, I digress. But yes, yeah. So it looks a little different for others, but it is in that state where you are able to go within yourself and access that part of your brain and it needs the space. If it's in reactionary responding,
to notifications and to the dings, then no, you're not getting to that space that you need to to have that problem solving creativity to really kick in. So, and what that might look like, I mean, it could be if you're a runner, like I bet a lot of our runners, and I know that there are several city managers that I've worked with over the years and directors that that is their outlet. They say that's their stress outlet, but really.
It is their time to process things and they come up with some of their best ideas while they're out on those longer runs. So, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (10:38)
I think that's really huge that what you've identified here and what our cities, really need is that focus from us. It's not the quick reactions, it's the thoughtful leadership that we give when we give our time, our focus, our creative solutions and long-term clarity.
You can't get that if you're in that constant state of firefighting mode, which we all sometimes feel like we're in. So yeah, yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:04)
Correct.
There are times where you need the firefighter mode. To be clear, there
are times, but that is not what we are talking about here.
Charisse Deschenes (11:15)
Okay, so like, what does this look like in action, right? So let's talk about that practice. And for me, the first thing is just like naming it out loud a little bit telling our, you know, maybe we tell our staff or council that, you know, I don't live in my inbox if it's urgent, you know, maybe we reach out like by phone or we have some different ways that we set boundaries so that we know that we're protecting that.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:19)
Yes.
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (11:45)
creative space. I've even seen it with different employees saying, you know, I'm blocking out this particular time. Please, if you need me for some emergency, please come knock on my door. But I'm going through this right now. Yeah, but otherwise, unless it is an emergency, please give me that space. And I think that's one way that I thought was very effective, especially when you need that time and
Kellye Mazzoli (11:59)
But otherwise, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (12:11)
the 23 minutes, you know, if you're getting interrupted, say you're getting interrupted every 23 minutes for the entire day, when do you do your work, right? No.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:13)
Mm-hmm.
You're not getting any work done. You're not getting any of that
Q2 work that we always refer to. You don't get that done.
Charisse Deschenes (12:25)
Yeah, yeah,
you don't. So set your cultural boundaries and give everyone else the same permission, know, to the permission to do the same thing as you do. It's the same thing as, you know, in the in the old days when people were like waiting for the boss to walk out the door. So then they knew that they could walk out the door and then the boss stays late. The people are staying late. They're just staying late, right? They're not really doing the productive thing. So really give yourself that.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:36)
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (12:51)
help give boundaries for yourself so that that gives boundaries for your staff.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:56)
Yeah, yeah, because again, you modeled the behavior that you want to see out of your staff. So it has to start with you. And I do say that phrase that you used, which is I don't live in my inbox. I say that all the time to people. And I mean that like, I just want you to know, like I am not that is not who I am. You are not going to get a response for me via email in the in 24 hours. If I do, it just so happens you sent it right.
before I batched my emails. So I don't live in the emails any longer. It is not my to-do list. My to-do list is completely separate from my emails. And it wasn't always like that. I used to live in my emails quite a bit, which meant I was beholden to the ding. I needed to know when that next email came in because I was waiting for that next answer. When you are trying to sever this relationship, I think there's some really
pretty straightforward and practical steps. So I want to walk through those and it starts first with you auditing your dings. So like Charisse like I would tell you like ask yourself which notifications are actually helping you to do your job. And then which ones are actually stealing your focus. That's the first you got to audit it. You got to be really real and honest with yourself. Like lying about this stuff doesn't help anybody and this is only for your benefit.
So which ones are stealing your focus, right? Facebook notifications, probably stealing. I mean, nine times out of 10, at least for me, those are stealing my focus. And then, you know, but the notifications that might actually help me get my job done, maybe it is a text message, you know? So the second step is to batch your notifications.
Charisse Deschenes (14:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (14:39)
So I actually use the do not disturb or focus mode on my phone. And it is really, really helpful. And the funny thing is, is I actually removed everything from my home screen except for my clock, because I refer to it like it's my watch. And so I just have a black phone screen. And so there's nothing distracting me or pulling my...
attention when I look at my phone. Meaning like my text messages don't pop up. Like I don't see them. The only time I see them is if I go into my phone. You can set your phone up to where you don't receive those notifications. They don't always have to be a banner. They don't always have to sit there. They can be temporary or they could be turned off. So the majority of my applications, I deny them to send me any notifications at all.
If it's an important app, guess what? I am gonna know when I need to go into that. I go into an app whenever I want to, whenever I need to. I don't go into it because it has dinged me and told me to go into it. So I've taken my power back, so to speak. So yeah, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (15:34)
you
Yes, yeah, no, that's that's wonderful. I
think I've done that with some but not all. So I'm going to go in after our episode and do that.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:51)
Yeah, yeah, go do it to all. Yeah,
yeah. Worst case scenario, you can turn them on. So if you find that you miss a notification, you can choose to turn it on. But it's usually whenever you download something, they ask you, like as you're setting it up, like, allow this app to give you notifications. Just say no. You can always go and turn it on if you decide that you need them. But otherwise, you probably don't.
I think that even utilizing the do not disturb or the focus mode on your phone or on your computer, tablet, whatever is around you for technology, that if you can use it for like an hour in the morning or maybe an hour in the afternoon, it can really shift and sort of clear and energize you.
And I think the third piece I would say is to go ahead and create some of those rituals. We've talked about it in a few episodes, what rituals we use in the mornings and different things like that. But I find that if I block some time to do deep work on my calendar and I treat it like it's a meeting, like I have to actually treat it like a meeting, then I don't allow any notifications during deep work. And we had talked about lyrics and the power of music. And I have a playlist called Flow.
triggers and it is the instrumental music that you were talking about that doesn't have really any words to it and it helps me get into a flow state and deeply work and it helps me block out any of sort of like just the weird noises that happen outside my my my window or you know whatever's going on for the day or you know the dogs doing their things so
But no notifications are allowed. And I think whenever you start practicing these things sort of consistently, then your brain does get used to dropping into focus even more easily. It's much easier for me now than it was whenever I first started doing these sort of things. But yeah, so first audit and then second batch and then third is create those rituals.
Charisse Deschenes (17:47)
Those are really wonderful that I think that I know that I'll be making some changes. I do a lot of those, but not all of them. So thank you for sharing those ideas, Kellye, because I think that if I can get back any time and also, you know, the focus that you're still sitting that 23 minutes is really sitting with me hard here, but.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:09)
Yeah. No, and I mean, and I'm sharing with you the things that I actually do. So this
isn't, I mean, I know it is doable because I personally have done them. That's why I'm sharing these things for you to sort of like take a minute. And even if you don't want to take the time to do the audit, you don't have to do the audit. Just go turn off all your notifications and see what happens.
Charisse Deschenes (18:20)
Yeah.
Yeah. I think, I think too, that you go through the times of being really efficient at that, or like, you know, setting yourself up to be efficient. And then I have to go back and remind myself every few months or, you know, to make a change or really actively think about how, um, I'm being efficient with my time. So I think this has really been, um, a great conversation and also that, you know, that ripple effect of being able to be in flow. That's a really powerful.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:40)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (18:57)
It's also a powerful ripple effect on your organization as you and your team focus on what matters instead of what the little, you know, the bings up. Okay. I don't give a ding, right? We need to focus and move forward. And, you know, suddenly you are more clear headed in your leadership and your team is doing the same thing, to make better decisions and actually have that.
energy at the end of the day to get things done. I think what, what tools do you have in your toolbox that set you up for that success?
Kellye Mazzoli (19:34)
Yeah, and I think two is that we forget that every time there is a ding and we are drawn away from the task at hand, you have to decide every time you hear the ding, you have to decide and make a decision. Am I gonna look at it? Am I not? And then if you do choose to look at it, then you gotta decide what is it that you're gonna do with this ding? Do you end up scrolling Facebook? Do you end up in your emails again?
And I do that too sometimes and I go and I find myself sort of wandering down that path. But that is where the decision fatigue comes in. So if you turn off those notifications and you're not giving a ding, not getting a ding anymore, then those are all decisions that you no longer have to make. You no longer have to hear a ding and then decide whether or not you're gonna pay attention to it. You don't even have to.
worry about that. So it helps with your decision fatigue, which I think is a real issue for city managers and executives in the role. just have a lot of decisions that we make on a day to day basis. And every ding that is honestly, it's a withdrawal from your focus bank, if you want to think of it that way. And you only get so many deposits each day in that bank.
Charisse Deschenes (20:46)
Yeah. So when you turn it off, it's not missing out. It's you showing up for your full brain. Right? Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (20:53)
Yep. Yep. And yeah,
here's the challenge for our listeners is to turn off your notifications and for Charisse too, because I know she needs to do this too. Turn them off just for an hour today, like just one hour. Just don't give a ding for an entire hour and see how much more clarity and energy you walk away with and see if you like having no notifications for that hour. Or maybe you can do a half day or maybe you could do a full day. Maybe you do one full day and just see how much work you get if you're really feeling spicy.
Charisse Deschenes (21:00)
Ha
Yeah, yeah. And imagine if you built that into your leadership every single day. That's how you reclaim your and your time and your leadership.
Kellye Mazzoli (21:30)
So until next time, remember to mute your phone, but unmute yourself. Thanks.
