Charisse Deschenes (00:31)
Welcome back to Unmuted, where we strip away the noise and talk about what it really takes to lead, live, and stay human in the process. I'm Charisse
Kellye Mazzoli (00:41)
And I'm Kellye. Today we're exploring something I think every leader and honestly every human being wrestles with and that is structure. So specifically whether you need more of it in your day or maybe less of it in a day because both of them can make you feel stuck in totally different ways. Let's start with when structure starts to suffocate you or maybe when it sort of disappears. so Charisse, have you ever had one of those days where you feel like you're drowning in meetings?
Charisse Deschenes (01:11)
Never, never ever. Of course, yes. Yes.
Kellye Mazzoli (01:12)
So you didn't work in local government. Yeah, it's the kind of day,
right? So it's the kind of day where your calendar looks like a wall of color. There's back to back appointments. There's no bio breaks. There's no white space, no room to even breathe. Maybe you're answering your emails between meetings, you're eating lunch at your desk, and then you realize at 5 p.m. that you've been on for eight straight hours and somehow you didn't even finish one actual project.
but then the opposite can happen too. You'll have a day, like whenever it's wide open, I would get really, really excited about those with nothing blocked on my calendar. And I'm like, this is gonna be amazing. And then I floated. Like I just kind of drifted from one thing to another, answering messages, taking random phone calls, reacting to whatever pops up or stopped by my office. And by the end of the day, I've been busy, but not productive.
So I've touched everything, but maybe completed nothing. I guess here, I just wanted to say is that I've lived on both sides of that pendulum and like one day I've been really hyper structured and sort of feeling suffocated in it. And then the next time really loose and untethered. But the common thread in both is that neither of them actually felt good. The overstructured version of me loses.
the creativity that I think that you need to problem solve. And then the unstructured version sort of loses the direction and the focus that is needed. And I think that's where many leaders in local government can get trapped. So believing the answer is to pick a side when the truth is actually we need both. We need enough structure to hold us, but then enough space to breathe to be creative.
Charisse Deschenes (02:55)
Yes, yes, yes. What we really mean when we say I need more structure, right? That's where we're going next. And the pendulum you just described, I know that so well, Kellye. You just described many, many days of my life. When I worked in city government, I thought being structured meant being effective. I measured success at how full my calendar looked sometimes, to be honest. And when every minute was accounted for, I started feeling like my
Kellye Mazzoli (03:10)
You
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (03:25)
in my own day, I'll be honest there. Everything was scheduled for me sometimes and nothing was designed by me. I think you've been there too. What I've realized is that when people say I need more structure, what they really mean is I'm out of control. And when they say I need less structure, maybe they have, they're feeling trapped because they're over scheduled or even micromanaged in some way.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (03:52)
It's rarely about the amount of structure. It's about how that structure feels in your body. Right? Too much structure and you start performing instead of leading and you lose that spontaneity that keeps you human. Too little structure and you lose the accountability that keeps you grounded. What most of us really crave is alignment and
a daily ritual or rhythm that matches how our brain works and how our energy rises and falls. the reality of the season, that's the reality of the season that we're in, right? And yeah, and that's where so many high performing leaders go wrong. We copy other people's rhythms or schedules. We read the miracle morning and we do a complete shift and we make that change in our day. And we think that that is, you know,
Kellye Mazzoli (04:27)
Absolutely.
Charisse Deschenes (04:44)
the structure that is universal and this is going to work this time. But the truth is, is that your structure should feel really personal and it should be designed around your energy and not your calendar app. We have so many apps today. Which one am I going to use to track this? And so pretty soon you're just app, your app overuse is going into play. But when you build your day around your natural rhythm, structure becomes a support system, not a cage.
Kellye Mazzoli (04:57)
Oof. Right.
So true.
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (05:12)
and it stops being about control and starts being about your capacity and giving you the energy to show up fully without burning out. So really listen to yourself when you're structuring your calendar and when you're setting pace. It's not about everyone else. It's about you.
Kellye Mazzoli (05:23)
Oof.
Right? I love that distinction between control and capacity. I think that's exactly what separates our outer structure from our inner structure. So outer structure is the stuff that everyone can see. So this is the meetings, the calendar that's all color coded, the project boards, the workflows, your monday.com. It's literally the visible part of the organization. It's on the outside, but your inner structure is the invisible.
part of this, which is like your mindset and it's your boundaries when you say no and when you say yes, it's your clarity. It's the way you talk to yourself when the plan changes and you have to be flexible or adaptable. So I think most people will overdevelop one and underdevelop the other. You can have a perfect system, but with no internal clarity, you'll still feel scattered. Because I've been there.
Charisse Deschenes (06:19)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (06:27)
Right, where I've had the perfect system, I've implemented it, I have inbox zero, everything's on my calendar, just like the system says to do, but if you don't have that internal clarity, it still feels scattered. You can have really great self-awareness, but no external container though to support it too. And then that's when everything just sort of slowly falls through the cracks. And when I was in city management, my outer structure honestly was pristine.
Charisse Deschenes (06:53)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (06:54)
pretty organized most of the time, but my inner structure sometimes left something to be desired. I was functioning, high functioning, but the truth is there was a point where I was not feeling anymore. And that's where leaders hit burnout. That's when their external systems, they look very strong on the outside, but really they're just holding everything together with sort of like,
with caffeine, which is like the duct tape of our profession, I think. So I do feel like the shift came for me when I realized that structure wasn't the goal anymore, that the structure in my calendar and my systems was really more like scaffolding. Like it's there to support my growth, but it wasn't there to replace my intuition. And I think you have to be able to adjust it as your life and your leadership evolve. So.
That's why when people tell me they're overwhelmed, I don't ask them to add additional structure to their day. I ask them to examine maybe which kind is missing. Because I don't think that adding more rules will fix misalignment. But when you rebuild your structure around your energy and your purpose and your season, I talk a lot about seasons with my clients.
Charisse Deschenes (08:01)
Right.
Kellye Mazzoli (08:09)
that we have to have this adaptability and flexibility that comes from understanding that we're living in a season and things change. And whenever we start rebuilding structure around energy purpose in the season, then the things start clicking again, but it's not about a perfect system. That's the truth.
Charisse Deschenes (08:28)
Yeah, Kellye, like, let's talk a little bit about the rhythm framework of that. What it looks like in real life, because I think people imagine this concept of balance as this perfect calendar layout, and it's not all that, right? It's not even close. It's more about the rhythm than the balance. And for me, that rhythm has like three different layers, anchors, focus blocks, and margins.
Kellye Mazzoli (08:33)
That'd be great.
Charisse Deschenes (08:55)
And what I mean by that is anchors are those fixed points. They ground you. They can be tiny. They can be your slow morning coffee. They can be a walk before work. Yeah, yeah. And journaling at night or in the morning, know, wherever you feel, it's just your rhythm. It's that thing that fixes you and grounds you. And they remind you that, you know, they remind you of who you are.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:06)
That's me.
Charisse Deschenes (09:23)
before the world tells you what to do for the day.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:26)
I love it. Or reminds you of who you are at the end of the day,
even after the world has yelled at you all day.
Charisse Deschenes (09:32)
Exactly. It's your anchor and you make better decisions when you start that way. Now, the second thing that I'm pointing out is that focus blocks. Those are deep work windows where you protect your best energy. You you set up your calendar and you just have that 90 minute focus time, your flow. I used to think that that meant like eight hours straight, but I know that those 90 minute bursts were sometimes even shorter are that
Kellye Mazzoli (09:38)
Love that.
Charisse Deschenes (09:57)
time where you have that present and uninterrupted work and you're doing the things that matter most for what you're trying to accomplish.
Kellye Mazzoli (10:05)
Can I interject here, Charisse? So, so important. Yes, I thought also focus blocks were like eight hours straight as well. So I'm there with you. But there is science out there that shows that our brains are good for maybe about a 90 minute burst. Like literally like a boop, 90 minutes. And then we have to take a few minutes to reset.
Charisse Deschenes (10:13)
You
All
Kellye Mazzoli (10:28)
So I'm really interested in hearing about your third part, which I imagine is where we're going. But yeah, the 90 minutes thing is actually scientifically backed. can focus on one thing for about 90 minutes. That's a good, just a good, I wanted to make sure to note that for people in the audience so that they have like an idea. Put a 90 minute thing on your calendar for deep work, for focus work.
Charisse Deschenes (10:36)
Yeah.
Right. I think that that's scientific. And I will also will say where we're talking about personalizing that 90 minutes seems like a long time sometimes for me. Sometimes it's an hour. But you you do you, right? And then, know, like the up up to 90 minutes, not 10 minutes, but yeah. Anyway. And then, you know, the third thing that I would mention was it's the margins. And honestly, this is the one where leaders resist.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:01)
Sure, yeah. Up to 90.
Charisse Deschenes (11:19)
Margins are that white space between your commitments, that time that you build in to breathe in between your schedule, like the 15 minutes that maybe you should take to, you know, take a walk or don't fill it at all. It's the quiet car rides. I like to think about it as the time that you just take a quick break. I remember just having seen some time on my schedule and just walking outside and sitting on the bench in the sun and breathing.
Boy, that was a margin that I really appreciated. And I do it in the coldest of winter days and hottest of summer day. It was perfect. But everyone has their own way. if you take that time to really maybe don't resist it as much and really embrace that 15 minute time margin, you might feel like you're more energized to do the work when you're in your 90 minute block. But when I was in the city, thought efficiency met no gaps.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:09)
He
Charisse Deschenes (12:14)
And it turns out that when I really did embrace that 15 minute time and you the time on the bench that's where my creativity was living and I think others will find that too. The insight comes from when your brain finally has the oxygen and those moments where your ideas integrate and where your wisdom surfaces. So yeah when when we talk about structure what we're really talking about is the rhythm that holds both motion and rest.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:34)
Mm.
Charisse Deschenes (12:43)
It's not rigidity, it's responsiveness. It's knowing when to engage and when to release.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:50)
That's such a powerful reframe. Structure as rhythm instead of rigidity. And I think one of the biggest mistakes that leaders make is forgetting that their rhythm actually changes. So as I was mentioning before, let's lean into this idea that there are seasons for execution. When you need tighter systems, you need more structure, maybe a sharper focus, and then there are seasons for creativity.
and maybe even some healing or transition, which I think most of us in local government have experienced that whenever you need some additional openness and grace. When I left local government, I really honestly thought about swinging really far into freedom, where I had nothing on my calendar and I wanted just like total space, and then I hated it. But what I didn't realize was that
that total freedom without direction would eventually turn into more of a drift or feeling a drift. Even if I wasn't, even if I was doing things, I didn't have my consciousness around it and my intention. So my energy felt scattered. And the funny thing was, that then my creativity dulled. So I needed to add a little more scaffolding again, even though it looked a lot different. And it wasn't controlling my day like it was before. It was really more about guiding it. And so I would wake up,
pretty early in the morning with my husband had an early call time. So I was up pretty early in the morning, like say maybe 430 in the morning. And then I added some structure to that where it was time for me to read and learn and then journal and then meditate. And so I created my own scaffolding. It looked very different than what I was doing in local government. But
I, you know, even still, think the same goes the other way. So, and when I was deep in city management, everything was over structured. I found no space to think, I just had to do's and I had timelines to me and it was just go, go, go, go, go. And there I needed less constraint and I needed more breathing room. So there is a sweet spot and it's realizing that you're allowed to adjust, that there isn't a perfect one side or the other.
Charisse Deschenes (14:44)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:03)
you're not failing if your last year's routine isn't working for you this year, you have evolved. So structure should really flex with your season. And I just want to say, like, it's about recalibrating your rhythm so it matches who you are now, not who you were whenever you built it. And that's why the structure and the system that I built that ended up working for me in city management didn't work for me whenever I was trying to be an entrepreneur and start my own business.
So I had to change and recalibrate that rhythm. And even today, that was four years ago. And so even today, that structure and that rhythm has changed for me quite a bit. I don't wake up and do as much learning and journaling in the morning as I once did. Now it is that slow morning coffee in the mornings. And I've mentioned this multiple times, but it's the five minutes.
where I just pet my dogs and I look at them and I smile and I just enjoy how soft and wonderful they are as they first wake up in the morning with me. I think that's the part that people miss though. Right? You don't need to overhaul your life. You just need to ask like, where do I need to tighten up and where do I need to loosen? And like, be really honest with yourself.
Charisse Deschenes (16:07)
Yeah.
And it sounds like you were, you know, at first you tightened up more because you had that loosened experience and then you readjust. And I've had that experience as well where I set something completely rigid for, know, when I left local government because yeah, again, I felt like, I'm out of rhythm. I must develop that framework. It has to be like this. And yeah, like you have recalibrated and yeah. So sometimes that's just a simple reset. ⁓
Kellye Mazzoli (16:35)
Right? Could I do it the same way?
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (16:44)
Right? ⁓
Kellye Mazzoli (16:45)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (16:46)
When a client tells me that they're out of rhythm, I start by having them track energy instead of time. Energy. Yeah. Energy. So maybe, yeah, the energy and for maybe thinking about one week, just notice when you feel sharp, when you feel focused, when you feel creative.
Kellye Mazzoli (16:53)
Ding, ding, ding. Energy, energy over time. Time is a construct. Energy is like real.
Charisse Deschenes (17:11)
Or, you know, maybe it's the time in the afternoon when you're feeling really foggy and think about your patterns and how that really lays out. And so you start to maybe structure or think about that energy and where you're, you're, you're, have energy and where you don't have so much. So you put your deep thinking to work when you have those energy peaks and you save some of that administrative responsive email or something that doesn't take a lot of your brain power. when you're naturally in that lower energy state.
So protect those anchors and recognize them in your own life. And then this will help you maybe set your, keep your grounded and set your own schedule based on when you feel those energy shifts. So most importantly though, as I mentioned earlier, maybe leave that.
15 % of your day unscheduled. was talking about 15 minutes earlier, but 15 % of your day could be unscheduled as well, just so you have those moments of freedom to breathe on the bench or whatever it may be for you. It's not wasted time, it's renewal time. It's what gives you that structure in your life. And when you stop, excuse me, when you stop cramming everything in every little moment, then
Kellye Mazzoli (18:19)
Hehehe.
Charisse Deschenes (18:23)
expecting some kind of output that's exponential, you'll start seeing the input and you notice your thoughts, your patterns, your signals. That's when you start leaning from awareness instead of exhaustion.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:34)
I am so excited that you brought up this concept of a simple reset and it's just looking at your energy for a week. And I wanna add to something that I noticed is that I am not just on a daily or a weekly schedule, but for me, I'm on sort of a monthly cycle. So it's something to think about whenever you're looking at your focus time and your creativity time when you're feeling foggy or drained.
Charisse Deschenes (18:54)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:01)
Especially for women, I would say you might need to look at an entire month to get a real understanding about how your energy levels fluctuate. Just a little extra there. So maybe the question then that we're answering in this particular episode is not do I need more structure or less? It's actually what kind?
of structure will serve the person I am in this moment. Because the goal isn't control. It's about rhythm. When your days have both shape and space, you stop fighting time and you start flowing with it. I have done it personally. You can feel less like a manager of hours and emails and calendars and more like a curator of value and energy. So, and I think that's what makes
sustainable leadership. That's what it actually looks like. It's not this perfect routine that we all thought we needed to create and craft or that we see on YouTube or anywhere on social media, but it's a living rhythm, a living breathing system that supports your ambition within the context of who you are as a human.
Charisse Deschenes (20:21)
Exactly, because at the end of the day, Kellye, structure
Kellye Mazzoli (20:25)
It's meant to hold you. At the end of day, the s- yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (20:27)
It's meant to hold you.
Exactly, because at the end of the day, structure is meant to hold you, not to hold you hostage. And when you design your day around your energy and your creativity and your season, you finally get to experience what most people call balance. But it's not as a fixed state, but as a moving, breathing rhythm that fits your life.
Kellye Mazzoli (20:52)
And you know me, I don't like balance. I don't like that word. I always say integration. And to me, this is about integrating all of the pieces of your life. Thank you for being here with us today. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone else who might be rethinking their own structure or who thinks they're too busy. We'll see you next time on Unmuted.
Don't forget to join us in Tampa next Monday for our intimate happy hour at ICMA 2025. If you are not on the list and you would like to get on the list, which you'll need to be to get all the details to figure out where we're gonna be, reach out today to myself or Charisse, . Space is limited, so send us that message right now and we'll see you soon.
