Charisse Deschenes (00:32)
Welcome back to another episode of Unmuted. Today, we're talking about something every leader in local government knows well, that quiet shift that happens after an election. Not the campaign noise, not the yard signs or the debates, but that part that comes after, the governing. The transition period in what we're calling the post-election hangover. Not because anyone's falling apart, but because the system has to reset before we can move forward.
Kellye Mazzoli (01:02)
And you can feel it, can't you? Like that first day after an election, whenever you walk into City Hall and the air just, it just feels a little different. I think I've seen where some people come in a little bit lighter to work, others come in quieter. The phones ring a little more sometimes, and there have been seasons, like election seasons afterwards, where maybe it was a little less now that the vote count was in.
Charisse Deschenes (01:16)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (01:26)
But usually the local Facebook groups are still buzzing. We're still sort of looking to see what they're saying, what's happening. You know, some are demanding a recount depending on the year. But staff are still trying to figure out kind of like what can they say? Should they say anything at all? I mean, it's not chaos by any means, but it's definitely not calm either. It's like a, you know, everybody's sort of freaking out a little bit on the inside. It's a little in between. You're feeling like a little bit of the...
calm before a potential storm. And we don't know yet if the hurricane is actually going to form. So we're just sort of monitoring the Gulf to figure that out. But so if you've been in public service for any amount of time, you already know what I'm talking about, that the elections are part of the natural cycle. You know that they're not a crisis, even though sometimes they can feel like it, but they're just a change in those conditions. So that's what we're going to talk about today. Leadership is
Charisse Deschenes (01:59)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓
Kellye Mazzoli (02:16)
always tested when conditions change. So today really isn't about politics at all, even though we're talking elections, it's really about professional leadership after the votes are counted, right? When the new council seat, the priority shift in the communities really expect that forward motion again from us.
Charisse Deschenes (02:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. And you know, let's talk a little bit about that season that we're in, Kellye.
What makes the moment uniquely challenging isn't elections themselves. It's the political climate surrounding them. We've reached a point where our national polarization has become local and people are walking into, you know, the school board meetings, the city council meetings, carrying this language of national media headlines. And so they're quoting cable news and hosts instead of the local ordinances. And let's just say not all
Kellye Mazzoli (03:05)
Thank
Charisse Deschenes (03:07)
that translates to how local government actually works.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:12)
No, it doesn't. It
really doesn't. I can remember a council meeting that happened right after an election when somebody stood up during public comment and they used a term that came straight from the national political landscape, right? Like from definitely, like you were saying, from those cable news hosts. the room, we all froze because staff was literally, were sitting there thinking like, wait, is this about us now? We didn't know this was like local.
Charisse Deschenes (03:37)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:38)
This
seems more like a national issue, but that's what we are seeing. We're seeing more and more of that. It's a shift in how people perceive government. So there's this growing pressure from groups who really want to reshape government and specifically local government more into like a partisan political arena because it's the one where they can get in.
Charisse Deschenes (03:54)
Right.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:57)
Right. We're pretty limited at the state level of how much we can interact. We're pretty limited at the federal level of how much we can interact. But that's the great thing about local governments. One of the things that I loved the most about it was that it's there were boots on the ground, but it's not supposed to be partisan. I don't think really anywhere. And so there are others who are trying to keep things grounded in service and problem solving. But, you know, those tensions, they really don't disappear after Election Day.
I think they walk right into that governing arena you're talking about, Charisse. I think they walk right in there with us.
Charisse Deschenes (04:31)
Yeah, yeah, they do. it's, you know, that's worth saying, right? That doesn't make elected officials the problem. Most people run for office for the right reasons because they care about their community and they want to contribute.
Kellye Mazzoli (04:42)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Charisse Deschenes (04:47)
They want to make a difference, but the context they're stepping into isn't, you know, it's, it's kind of noisier than ever. And there's more urgency and there's more pressure to pick some type of a side, more scrutiny on staff and sometimes less trust in our professional expertise. And I think that actually not less trust. think there's, that's a growing movement right now is that less trust in what the public, you know, not officials, but our staff members are really dealing with. So.
Kellye Mazzoli (05:12)
Right? The workers.
Charisse Deschenes (05:13)
So yeah,
Kellye Mazzoli (05:14)
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (05:15)
yeah. So I don't think it's about bad people or broken systems. It's how we reestablish the trust and calm and that calm in the middle of all of it that we're dealing with. And how do we really start thinking about those, that communication and those relationships at this point in the process.
Kellye Mazzoli (05:35)
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, I mean, you said it really clearly, which is that most people who run for office, they run for the right reasons. Like our elected officials, they care, they care about the city, they care about the community, and they really want to contribute. And so I think like if we can hold on to that and understand that even if there's a disagreement about how to get there, that there are a lot of people, and I've seen that more often than not.
Charisse Deschenes (05:44)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (06:01)
the people who run for local elected office are there for the right reasons, quote, right reasons. You know what I mean? Like they're there because they care. And so let's, you know, just talking about this a little bit, I think it really is this time right after an election is really an important leadership moment. It is not a moment to sort of meltdown about anything, even though I think some of your staff is going to want to. I mean, I know city managers got it, but
Charisse Deschenes (06:07)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Hahaha
Kellye Mazzoli (06:28)
Leadership after an election really requires some discipline. It's asking us to listen more than we react. It is asking us to clarify more than we defend. And it's so easy to fall in that defensive mode. And I think it really is more about purpose than it is politics. But it's not easy because when the shift
happens around you and the tone shifts, your instinct is to either brace or explain, right? You automatically sort of jump into that. Like we, have to defend staff. I have to defend the organization. I have to defend the work that we have been doing and we have been accomplishing. But I think the real skill here is to stay grounded long enough so that we can see that new landscape very clearly and to remember that our jobs don't change overnight, even though maybe the environment did, but.
Charisse Deschenes (07:00)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (07:21)
I mean, is it even really the total environment? Probably not. It might just be a person or two sitting at the council dais.
Charisse Deschenes (07:29)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, when you said, you know, stop and listen, listen, listening is the most important thing, right? To start with, I think so many of us are like, but we know the answer that they need to know, right? You you kind of get stuck there and anytime you maybe find yourself reacting quickly, maybe hold it.
just listen for another three or four or five seconds and internalize that because this is new to those people in the moment,
Kellye Mazzoli (07:58)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
And it's and it's really hard to remember that. I think that's such a good point is that it's it's difficult to remember how new it is to them because you may still have seasoned elected officials on the council. So you're talking to two very different audiences. A new council member is very different than a seasoned elected official official. And so you're really having to tailor the message in a way that you weren't having to before.
Charisse Deschenes (08:16)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (08:25)
So I love that you're pointing that out. think that's really important.
Charisse Deschenes (08:28)
Yeah, yeah. And you know, when we were talking about like...
neutrality that doesn't mean you're staying silent and we know that we're all going to have our own opinions behind the scenes but we're not saying we're not we're going to be that neutral self that's what we know all city managers hey everyone out there knows that neutrality is important but it means that we also are staying principled and you can acknowledge that people are passionate without feeding that fire that they're having at that moment and you can remind your team that
we're feeling, that uncertainty, the awkwardness, the fatigue. It's totally normal after this transition that we're experiencing. So I always tell people communities don't stop needing things just because an election happened, you know.
The water still has to flow. Our emergency services are still responding. Payroll is still running. All the things are happening, but the work of local government doesn't pause because campaign energy is still in the air. The most grounded thing you can do is keep the machine running.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:27)
yeah, yeah. Keep the machine running and do it in a manner that's pretty calm, right? Like, isn't that sort of, that's the ideal sort of world is sort of going, okay, know, water's still flowing, our police and fire is still responding to those 911 calls, payroll still, you know, people are getting paid, like all those things are still happening. So that's exactly what I meant by like the environment hasn't changed necessarily all that much. All of that is still very, very important.
and continuing to go and how can we do this calmly? So let's, I wanna name a few of the challenges that I think that we have because I think they're normal. I think that they happen after every election season and they are absolutely manageable. So the first one that I want to point out is shifting priorities. So with new elected officials, I think they bring in new ideas, which is great.
But sometimes those ideas threaten to change direction really fast and we're not always that comfortable with it. But we have to sort of recognize and be aware that there may be shifting priorities. What I think we need to know as leaders is that then staff is wondering whether their work, what they've been doing, what they've been working on, whether or not it still matters. And that's a really difficult sort of thing. The second thing is communication gaps.
Charisse Deschenes (10:40)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (10:47)
There's this, we changing direction question? And that's the one of the most common things that I remember hearing from staff during this post-election season is sort of like, okay, and now what? Right? Like now we have this new council member, we know what platform they were running on, what they were saying during the election season. And does that mean that we go ahead and start shifting now, especially whenever like say your elections happen in November and maybe they don't even come on to council and have a seat on the council until January 1.
Charisse Deschenes (11:16)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:16)
So there are these
communication gaps that start happening between what the staff like hear and what they understand in the direction that they're moving. I think the third thing that sort of comes out of all of that is like an interpretation risk. So when we as leaders don't communicate early, that silence will get filled with whatever assumptions, the rumor mill that's happening. And that can move a lot faster than your meeting on.
you know, your meeting calendar. But, you know, so I just really want you to think about how all of these things sort of come together, the shifting priorities potentially, along with a communication gap, if you're not addressing things right up front for staff or even whenever you're in that weird sort of limbo period, and then the interpretation risk or the assumptions risk that happens among staff. So, and lastly, I think there is a fourth one, which is like community noise.
Charisse Deschenes (11:43)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:09)
So you still have people in your community who are still charged up from the campaign. know, some have quote one and some have quote lost. And so that can kind of be difficult, right? Like I said, some people are calling for the recall vote or, you know, don't believe that they lost or, you know, there's still accusations sort of flying in those Facebook groups. So we just have to expect that the community noise is potentially going to be there even though the vote is already in.
Charisse Deschenes (12:10)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:36)
And also note too that the ones that quote one or have their person in place, like now there's a lot of pressure on that elected official to take the action yesterday, right? To get that change in and to happen. But I think really honestly the key here is that none of this is a crisis. It is just change.
Right? And the change comes because the inputs have changed. Right now you have potential change only because you have new people sitting at the dais who could change the way that your government functions and runs. And through all of it though, I think through all of these challenges, these four challenges, I think it really just requires like a recommitment to intentional leadership and an awareness of these things.
Charisse Deschenes (12:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, Kellye, I think you've hit that. So, you know, the nail on the head by those statements. think that's, yeah, no, I mean, yeah, the communication, all the things, the transition, the thoughts that are, you know, going through your head, the inferences that are made because you don't know the answer at that particular moment and what this new thing is going to look like. All of those are.
Kellye Mazzoli (13:23)
Kicked it a few times.
Charisse Deschenes (13:40)
things that are happening in the moment, but you're right. You will get through that. It's only change. And it's something that we really probably deal with pretty often though, like at the local government level, right? And we get, if we kind of be, or if we're mindful of that, we can really make a shift that works with the whole team. So I would say, leadership starts with that stability. People don't need you to have every single answer.
Kellye Mazzoli (13:52)
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (14:07)
especially, you know, right now when you don't know it, but they need you to know, they need to know that you're steady and that they trust you and that you're going to work with them. And when you do know the answer that you're going to be there to have that discussion and you can do that through simple grounding messages, like we're in transition and that's normal, or we're, we're here to govern together, not campaign, or maybe it's even we, we may not share the same views, but we share a commitment to service. So those are.
the kind of statements that maybe do more than soothe, they kind of reestablish that professional norm. They remind us that everyone, and everyone, that we're a part of something bigger than an election and the election outcome.
Kellye Mazzoli (14:48)
Right,
right, right. And it is definitely worth saying that the tone here is everything at this moment that the election is over. When leaders sound defensive, staff will take on that energy. So if you want your staff to feel defensive and to be ready to fight, like then that's all you need to do is go in sounding defensive and feeling like it's us versus them, us versus that new council member.
Charisse Deschenes (15:10)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:15)
And I don't think any of the city managers that I've worked with have ever done that on purpose. I think that it has always come from a place of, they want to defend the good work that staff is doing, right? Like we have accomplished so much, we have done so much with so few resources. And then to have this new council member come in and maybe be...
Charisse Deschenes (15:31)
Right.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:38)
negative or say that things need to change or maybe we're not doing as good of a job. So I think a lot of times leadership will come up and they'll they'll sound defensive, but just remember then the staff takes on that energy. And what you really want is you want calm collaboration. That's how you get people to start to relax. And I think that is contagious too. So either way you get to decide what you want your organization to catch. Do you want them to get defensive and to be ready to fight? Is this you know, is this a battle?
Charisse Deschenes (15:58)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (16:07)
Or are you ready for your organization to, you know, I love the first phrase, transition, grounding message that you had, which was, in transition and that's normal. We're in transition and that's normal. It's not, it's like, it's not a big deal. It's just normal. This is just part of the job. And whenever you can start relaxing into that message, then I think it's very contagious for the rest of your staff.
Charisse Deschenes (16:17)
You
Right.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's important to mention. And I think, you know, in another episode that we were talking about, kind of that prep for the election and what does staff do to prepare for it. And then now you're in that phase of post-election period. And what are we going to do for the next 30 days? What are we doing for the next 60 days? What are we doing for the next 90 days? It's the reset phase. So you're probably not going to make very large decisions with the new council. And you might have some appointed
officials that are, you know, moving off the board immediately. and others that are coming on in January and a whole just different, you know, political spectrum of what could be happening in the moment. So just thinking that through and having the opportunity to think about those reset stages and how you can, you know, it's a built in opportunity to realign your priorities and reset roles, maybe clarify how policy and administration will interact, you know, as you go forward.
So this doesn't have to be formal, know, don't have to get your little 30 days we will, you know, but it can be like a simple council staff retreat or a facilitated conversation.
Kellye Mazzoli (17:44)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (17:44)
Sometimes it's just like a short memo of here's how we'll approach our work together this year or the key is naming that reset. know, meeting one-on-one, getting to know them. There's a whole bunch that happens in that moment when you're setting that kind of priority list. So that's just when you're normalizing everything and moving forward.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:05)
Yeah. And it is true. It is about naming that reset. I think you've hit that spot on where if you can say, okay, here's what we're going to be doing over the next 90 days. And this is like, if I'm thinking about, like, you know, we worked in Washington, so maybe, you know, November is the election and then the new council is seated January 1st, typically. And so you've got about 60 days between
the post-election and the setting of the council. But what's really great is if you push that out to 90 days and you talk about what you're gonna be doing for the first 30 and 60 to wrap up the year with the current council, and then you also say, here's what we're gonna do in that first 30 days of the next year, it gives staff an understanding like, it's okay, this is just.
Charisse Deschenes (18:55)
Right.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:00)
This is just a season, a transition season. So yeah, I think whenever you name it and you name this sort of reset, that that really helps. Because there are definitely ways in which you can sort of conclude the work that you've been doing over the final 60 days that you have with your former Council. And then what are you gonna do to jump in in that first 30 days to make sure they have all the answers? And you're right, we did. We talked about this and that in an episode earlier than this where we talked about how you prepare.
Charisse Deschenes (19:23)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:27)
for potential shifts and changes. And that's where these plans start coming back in and being really important. ⁓ So, one of the things I think that really helped me the most when I was an assistant city manager is taking my staff and meeting with them and doing, I mean, guess you could sort of call it like a post-election reset. I didn't really actually call it that.
Charisse Deschenes (19:37)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:52)
But that's what we would pull out the, well, I like the Post-It notes, but we'd either use a whiteboard or we'd use the big, huge Post-It notes. You know what I'm talking about. ⁓ And I would talk about like, what's gonna stay the same? What's sort of uncertain? What are we worried about? And just sort of mapping out the landscape that my entire staff was feeling in different areas, because I had different divisions that were all over.
Charisse Deschenes (20:03)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (20:19)
the organization. So they were feeling it very different depending on who had won the election. And so I think it helped them to see that other divisions were feeling uncertain, but that we would all come together and that we would work on it and that we would manage it. And I think I would say too is that there's a neuroscience angle here, that the brain performs better when things feel clearer and a little more organized in our brain. And so this helps to do that.
whenever you sit down and you say, okay, what's gonna stay the same? What is uncertain? What are we worried about? Like just even processing through that together, even with no quote solutions per se, because you really don't know until you get those council members in their seats. It still helped things feel clear. So uncertainty drains energy because it keeps people in this, you know, what if mode, but clarity, can, it,
even if it's incomplete, I think it helps restore focus. So I think that's what makes this leader, this part of it leadership and not just management. It's not just managing and reacting to what's coming your way, but it's about really like sitting down and having these conversations.
Charisse Deschenes (21:27)
Yeah, Kellye, I think that's such an important distinction because you're not pretending that you have all of the answers and you are giving staff and your team the ability to think through scenarios and start to plan even when you don't have, you know, everything figured out quite yet. It's better to prepare than not to prepare. Right. That's the work of leadership after an election, I think.
Kellye Mazzoli (21:50)
For
sure. And I think I hear a question in my brain a whole lot at this time, which is really like, how do I acknowledge this tension without making it worse? but ⁓ the answer to that is, like there is an answer to that. It's not just a lingering question, but it comes up and the answer is to name the facts and not villains. we absolutely, we know we don't have to get political. You and I have both had long careers in which
Charisse Deschenes (22:01)
You
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (22:17)
you know, we have not gotten political. We just have to be clear. We can say we're in a season of transition and that means there's gonna be a lot of new ideas and there's gonna be different perspectives and all of that's okay. And we may not all agree, but our process gives us a way forward. And you can definitely set boundaries without adding, I don't know, a whole lot of heat.
Charisse Deschenes (22:39)
Yeah,
exactly. It could be something as simple as we're not always, we don't always plan, or I'm sorry, we're not always going to agree, you know, but disagreement isn't dysfunction, it's democracy. And our job is to make sure disagreement doesn't block our processes. And, ⁓ you know, that's clarity without combat.
Kellye Mazzoli (22:54)
Yes.
Charisse Deschenes (22:58)
And this will, you know, this is where emotional regulation comes in too. Leaders who can name the moment calmly before, become the anchors for everyone else. And you don't have to fix it all. You just have to study it.
Kellye Mazzoli (23:11)
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about the human part just for a minute here, close to the end, because this stretch really takes a toll even on seasoned leaders. You know, the emails come in faster. Maybe you're sleeping less and you start replaying conversations, wondering if you said too much. Maybe you didn't say enough. It's really easy to start slipping into more of a self-protection mode. And that is when it's most important for you to have your own.
Charisse Deschenes (23:31)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (23:36)
self-leadership plan. And what I mean by that, we're gonna go back to the tried and true, which is journaling, walking before work, taking a real lunch break. And what I mean by a real lunch break is where you like actually separate yourself from your desk and you have a moment to eat your lunch. I don't care if it's at your little conference table, if you have one of those in your...
Charisse Deschenes (23:41)
Ha ha.
Right.
Kellye Mazzoli (23:58)
in your office, it could be in your office, just like separate yourself from the email, separate yourself from that phone and take a real lunch break. And even better if you can go grab a spot on a bench out in one of your parks or outside of city hall, because your nervous system really needs to know that you're safe, even if things feel unstable. So you have to do things that helps your nervous system know that you're safe. And that's how you do that.
Charisse Deschenes (24:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, wonderful to mention Kellye. That's not the small stuff. That's the important stuff. That's the sustainable leadership working. You you need that to be there for everyone on your team. If you're running on adrenaline for like 90 days straight, you're not thinking clearly, are you?
Kellye Mazzoli (24:43)
No.
Charisse Deschenes (24:45)
you're reacting. I mean, I think about when you drink, well, I don't do this, but if you've had like one red bull for me, maybe a half, your brain is just on adrenaline. And how well do you really think when you're like just buzzed? ⁓ Yeah, yeah. But, you know,
Kellye Mazzoli (24:58)
You all right? Just, ah, on edge.
Charisse Deschenes (25:01)
When you regulate yourself, you model what you want your team to do. So if you want your team to be calm and well-prepared, you do the same thing. It's like the flight attendant says, put on your own oxygen mask first. We say that quite a bit on this podcast. This is that moment. Leaders who can excel, ground, and reset the whole organization, that helps them all breathe.
Kellye Mazzoli (25:06)
Mm-hmm.
So if you're navigating, you happen to be in this post-election space that we're talking about right now, if this is your election cycle, here's our encouragement. Lead on purpose. Be intentional. You don't have to fear the moment. You just have to be in it. You have to be present with it. You have to take the time to reset. Communicate early. Create clarity even when you don't have all the answers. And I know that every single one of us can do that.
Charisse Deschenes (25:56)
Yes, and ground yourself, stabilize your team, keep your mission bigger than the noise. Because while politics may shape the environment, leadership shapes the future.
Kellye Mazzoli (26:07)
Yeah, and most importantly, I think give yourself credit. This isn't easy work, but it's meaningful. It's meaningful work. And the community still needs you to be steady, not necessarily perfect, but it does need you to be steady and calm.
Charisse Deschenes (26:10)
Yeah.
Yeah, so thank you for listening to the Unmuted podcast today and remember to take a deep breath, recalibrate and remind yourself that this is what leaders look like in real time. Messy and human and necessary.
Kellye Mazzoli (26:37)
so remember, stay unmuted.
