Kellye Mazzoli (00:32)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Unmuted. Today we're talking about our family ties. How much should we bring them in whenever you have a job like city management? So it's the week before Thanksgiving and I want to ask you, Charisse you know, I'm starting to feel, I'm feeling that tug between like wanting to slow down and realizing I'm still running it at full speed.
There's, you know, it's like whenever you're in this moment where it felt like there's like a council meeting on Monday and a report due on Tuesday and somehow I'm supposed to be calm and be a present version of myself by Thanksgiving, right? So I'm curious, what's your favorite Thanksgiving food?
Charisse Deschenes (01:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
boy. Kellye, I love all the Thanksgiving food. think, I think what the, my, my favorite is when it all blends together on your plate and you take a bite and the whole thing tastes like Thanksgiving. That's, that's probably my favorite bite of Thanksgiving. But one thing my mom makes this, it's like a cranberry, mold kind of thing with celery and walnuts and all the things. It's a very Southern.
Kellye Mazzoli (01:21)
Isn't that the truth?
Yeah
Love it, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (01:44)
dish that she got from her great-grandmother. So I do like that one.
Kellye Mazzoli (01:49)
Okay, you're gonna have to make that for me whenever we're in person, for sure. I gotta try this out, it sounds delightful. Well, not really, I like it all. I really do like it all. And I'm kind of a traditional Thanksgiving person. Like I just, I like my turkey and probably the dark meat and more than the white meat. And I like the gravy and I like the stuffing.
Charisse Deschenes (01:54)
Absolutely. Do you have a favorite dish?
Kellye Mazzoli (02:18)
I like the kind where you're the one who's crumbling up the, like we put sausage in ours and onions it's a really good stuffing. So I think that, that's kind of my favorite, but I like mashed potatoes. I love homemade mac and cheese. gosh, the green beans, it's all of it. All of it's good. Broccoli cheese casserole. Yeah, we kind of go all out.
Charisse Deschenes (02:34)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (02:38)
for Thanksgiving and some years we don't. We actually made tamales for one Thanksgiving and we had friends come over and we did a friendsgiving and made our own tamales and that was it was really amazing. It's really good. So yeah, I love Thanksgiving. So I have a question for you. Are you able to unplug when you want to?
⁓ Because I feel like whenever the holidays come around, Thanksgiving comes around, and I want to unplug, like the stress just doesn't get the memo. And I can't like back when I was in ACM, like I couldn't step out of City Hall and came home with me. Like there were it was was even still as much as I wasn't there in the office, I was still worried about the decisions and the people and the issues. Like, I mean, you know, it just doesn't pause just because calendar says it's, you know.
Charisse Deschenes (03:09)
Right.
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:29)
a couple days off or a whole holiday week. Is that like that for you at all?
Charisse Deschenes (03:32)
Doesn't pause.
Yeah, no, absolutely. Exactly like that. I feel like the time leading up to the holiday feels even more stressful as you're hitting that Wednesday and you're like, I have to cook all these things and I to be somewhere like three hours away tomorrow morning and have all the energy, know, all the things like that.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:46)
you
Charisse Deschenes (03:53)
I would say for me once Thursday hits, though, I'm like thinking, everybody is off. Nothing's going on. But you really do know in the back of your mind that you're thinking about the work.
Kellye Mazzoli (04:04)
Yeah,
yeah.
So that's what we really want to talk about today. Not the big emotional unraveling, but the everyday stress that comes with leadership and how much of that we actually let our families in on. Like how much do you spare? Share with your spouse whenever you're under pressure. What do you say to your parents when they ask how's work at Thanksgiving dinner?
how do you show up for a holiday when you're still carrying like a thousand open loops in your head?
Charisse Deschenes (04:32)
Yeah, yeah, I'd say, you know, let's start with that spouse piece because
Just thinking about how, for me, the situation is very unique because I do, my husband is also a local government professional. So over the years, we've been able to bounce ideas off of one another or thoughts or just, you know, live. Yeah, right. Just sit in moments.
Kellye Mazzoli (04:52)
Ooh, lucky you.
you
Charisse Deschenes (04:56)
Sometimes it's lucky and sometimes, you know, you gotta find a way to turn that off, in your relationship too, because you can dwell on, you know, work more than your relationship if you let it. So I think that that's one thing that we've had to work on over the years and different techniques. Sometimes you get worse at it because you're both going through something really stressful and you just feed off of one another. And, ⁓ other times you're like, okay, stop time out, let's set a boundary.
Kellye Mazzoli (05:20)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (05:25)
It's 6.57 p.m. and we're gonna stop talking about this at 7 and then we're gonna just have our evening, right? But yeah, no, that's how I've been, you know, through the last probably 20 years of my life. So how about you, Kellye?
Kellye Mazzoli (05:31)
Three minutes, go. Yeah, I love it.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, honestly, for me, it really is sort of a it can be kind of a quiet withdrawal. Like I thought really I was being sort of strong and keeping it together. But my husband, Alex, he would he would pick up on it and he would be like, so what's wrong? What's going on? And I'd say nothing. I'm just thinking. And I think he understood that the I'm just thinking was met.
You know, I've got something replaying in my head and it was sort of, you know, I'm replaying conversations for my day for sure. I'm anticipating the next conversations that are going to go up and happen. And and he would he would pick up on that. So I'm really lucky he's he's fairly in tune with me. But I really honestly feel like I was carrying the weight of everybody else's emotions back.
And there was, you know, whether it was council attention, it was, you know, staff just being overwhelmed or budget pressure. And maybe I hadn't decompressed yet. So I'd walk through the door. And yes, my my my whole my whole body, my whole being was there. But honestly, emotionally, mentally, maybe I hadn't really arrived home. And he definitely pick up on that.
Charisse Deschenes (06:53)
Yeah, I mean, I still think of that or call it like a phantom meeting when you're still in it. It's over, but you're still in there processing. Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (06:59)
Yeah, we're long after. my gosh. I like that term phantom
meaning. It's like the meeting that never ends. Yeah, you know, and I've actually and I have to say, I don't know if anybody else out there has ever done this, but I've I've actually treated my spouse like another department head where I'm trying to like manage my communication with him, like, you know, just email me instead of a person who like who actually wants you back.
Charisse Deschenes (07:07)
huh, huh.
You
Kellye Mazzoli (07:26)
So I've learned slowly that there is a difference between sharing the stress and transferring it. Like I don't I don't need to dump every single detail anymore, but I do need to name what it is that I'm feeling. So it doesn't just kind of it doesn't really explode out of me, but it's almost like leaking out. Eventually it comes out no matter what. If I'm not willing to name that feeling, it will come out in another in another way. So I think
Nowadays, it's a little different. If I've had a rough day or if it's just been sort of a stressful day, I say I'm maxed out right now. I need about 20 minutes to reset. And really, it's that simple. It stops the guessing game for for him. He doesn't have to wonder. And it stops the guessing game for me. It's like I really am much better at being aware and really fully coming in to saying like.
This is just what's happening right now. It's just a minute that I need to reset.
Charisse Deschenes (08:23)
Yeah, I love that mindfulness that you set for yourself. think, you know, looking back over the years, there's been many times knowing that I'm walking into a house with a spouse that is in the same industry that I've just pushed it down or just.
I'm not even talking about this because if I do, then that becomes my whole night. I'm trying to get a reprieve from this conversation or this situation. And so, you know, that isn't the best way to handle it either, but it is something that I've, I've, you know, had to work on over the years. So I can imagine other people do the same and just try to hold it all in, you know. but when you say, you know, that
you take that extra time and you'd process it. I love that because, you know, they don't need the minutes from meeting your spouse. They need, they need the headline.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:17)
They definitely don't want that. They're not getting
paid to be in that meeting.
Charisse Deschenes (09:21)
like I said, I've found different ways to deal with it over time, but I think probably the most unproductive for me was the moments of just holding it all in. And now we kind of talk a little bit through. It is the headlines, but for me, it's not.
necessarily where it stops because you have someone that can help you process something deeply. So I still struggle with that Kellye is what I'm saying. So struggle about sharing too much and yeah, yeah, that's the that's the day to day.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:45)
Yes, I hear you.
Yeah, I imagine there were even
days whenever you were like, I don't want to put my stuff on him because he has his own stuff, like with him being in the same. And what's funny about it is like from my perspective, because my husband, he's in the military, but he is not in local government. It's a different ballgame. Sometimes I forget that maybe he's dealing with a lot of really kind of crazy stuff.
Charisse Deschenes (09:59)
Right. Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (10:15)
And he doesn't share exactly in the same way that I do and everybody sort of needs something different. So it's just kind of this interesting balance that I think we have to play. Can we talk a little bit about maybe the other kinds of family? Right? So spouses, obviously, probably partners. They'll take a lot. They see us every day, you know, more often or if I'm lucky, I get to see him every day if he's not deployed. But...
Charisse Deschenes (10:29)
Sure, sure.
You
Kellye Mazzoli (10:40)
whenever
we're talking about other kinds of family, we have parents, we have siblings, we have in-laws. There are people out there who love us deeply, but I mean, man, they really don't understand what it means to do what we do. well, in light of the holiday, every Thanksgiving, I can count on someone asking, so how's work going, right? It's really casual, it's very polite.
And it's such an innocent question, but like I have such a hard time not being just completely, totally open and honest. It's really a landmine because it's like, how much time do you have? Do you really want the answer? Because I don't think that there's a quick answer, you know, but is there a quick answer or the honest one? Which one do you want?
Charisse Deschenes (11:26)
I think nowadays it's definitely just the quick answer. I think that there was a time where I tried to start to explain and it's like, I don't want to relive this. And also this person that I'm telling, I've only got a little bit of time with them and they really just are asking me how I am, right? Like they don't really know what the world and I think that's fine because I don't know their world to the extreme either. What I do.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:44)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (11:50)
care about is them and what's going on. So I think over time, you know, I tried to share here and there and I've shifted gears and just started, yeah, I'm good. It's good. Everything's well, you know, there may be a few things that are stressful and I'll share with a close, close family member. But other than that, I try to keep it on the less professional side with my family.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, because let's let's be honest, if you give the honest
answer, it gets awkward really quick. Like trying to explain staffing shortages and council conflicts. And, know, you can't say anything about the mayor and what the mayor has said or hasn't said or done or hasn't done. Everybody's just like, OK, we don't really know what to do with it. So it gets awkward really quick. Yeah, I love it. You know, I've I've honestly stopped expecting my family to get it, quote, get it right.
Charisse Deschenes (12:27)
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:41)
Like
what I try to do now is I just try to give them truth without all the drama, truth without all the turbulence. So when somebody asks me how things are going, I say, hey, maybe I might say it's a busy season, but I'm really proud of everything that I'm doing. I've got a lot coming up. You know, it's true, but it's gracious. And it doesn't pull me back into the stress spiral. I mean, because that's the whole point of stepping away during the holidays and having that time to reset and being with family. It's about not
jumping right back into the stress spiral. It's about getting out and enjoying time with the family. So, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (13:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I love that. What you were saying about like truth without turbulence. That's nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (13:21)
Yeah, truth without, yeah, turbulence, drama, yeah, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (13:27)
You know, I started doing something similar, but it's like, I'll talk about the part that I'm energized about probably more than the other, maybe the more challenging, difficult issues. know, people encourage you maybe to quit or to do something else with your life, right? If you start talking about the only the negative part of your job, because we all know that
Kellye Mazzoli (13:33)
Yeah.
You
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (13:49)
serving and local government is so energizing for your soul in so many ways. It's a gift to be able to serve the people. So I don't know that everyone necessarily understands our commitment to that. I think my parent family also wants to have this reassurance that I'm okay, right? Isn't that what the, you want to know that your, know, your siblings or your parents or cousins are feeling good about what they're doing with their life and in this
Kellye Mazzoli (14:09)
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (14:15)
same way I feel like, you know, I owe that to them to let them know I'm okay. So, yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (14:19)
Yeah, yeah, I, yeah,
sometimes you just have to sort of redirect the conversation. I used to think I was being rude when I didn't engage really deeply about my work or try to explain what it is and why it's important, but honestly, now I see it as preserving my energy. And I'll just ask, like, what's new with you? Because I am genuinely interested in other people. mean, whether it's my family or it's friends, colleagues, like I'm, I'm generally, like,
Charisse Deschenes (14:25)
Yeah.
Ha ha!
Kellye Mazzoli (14:47)
I'm sincerely interested in what it is that they're going through in their own world, know, whatever industry that it might be that they're in. And so, you know, I just think choosing to have those conversations like what's new with you, it provides more connection because then they get to tell me about theirs. I really am able to dive in and put myself in their shoes and their...
Charisse Deschenes (15:04)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:12)
industry and I kind of enjoy it and it's a little bit of an escape for me to be honest. Like I could be present with them in their world, whatever world they're in and that helps me to sort of escape a little bit and have some time to reset from my world. So, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (15:27)
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so let's shift gears. Let's talk about the holidays themselves. That internal tug of war between wanting to relax and knowing that there's still a city to run through the weekend. For me,
It's not about physically stepping away so much as that I can close that laptop, silence those notifications, and it's the mental untethering that's hard. You know, I just can't flip that switch. Even I told you earlier that I've tried. It takes me about two days before my brain stops that scanning for that next fire.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:56)
Yeah.
Sure, it's the same. I used to think that rest was the sort of reward that you earned after you got everything done. And you mentioned that the week leading up to was sort of stressful for holiday especially whenever you're talking about Thanksgiving, because there's all these preparations and big meals to cook and all the extra things that come along with it or having to travel to other people's houses or having a bunch of people in your house. I mean, there's a lot usually that goes along with Thanksgiving.
But what I always found myself doing was trying to wrap up every single thing before I took my holiday time. So whether it was right up to the Wednesday prior to Thanksgiving or whether it was the Friday before if I was taking a full week. But it always felt really stressful. I had to get everything done in order to earn that rest as almost a reward. So I think over the years though what I...
Charisse Deschenes (16:46)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (16:56)
began to understand was that in city management, it's never all done. There's always another issue. There's always another email. There's always another deadline. I can't count how many times I got my inbox to zero right before a vacation or right before a holiday vacation. And it only lasted that day. Maybe not even the full day because it was always coming back in.
Charisse Deschenes (17:01)
Ha
Kellye Mazzoli (17:22)
I think of it more now like a muscle, where learning to rest while things are still unfinished is really crucial. Like I just, I had to learn how to do it. And that includes the holidays. So I can't turn everything off, but I can decide what gets access to my attention and when. I do have control of that. And so that means that if something comes up on Wednesday, but it can wait until Monday, especially now it waits. And I don't think that's neglect. I think that's stewardship of my energy.
and my resources, just like you were saying, dipping into what's energizing you. Yeah, protect that.
Charisse Deschenes (17:57)
I used to feel guilty for not being available 24 seven, like I was letting people down. And if I didn't answer that text or, you know, check that email and get back with someone soon, then that, you know, that was my, that was me feeling guilty. but the truth is that nobody gives you permission to rest and you have to decide that for yourself.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:17)
Nope, just you.
Charisse Deschenes (18:22)
And the irony is that when I actually give myself permission to step away, I come back sharper and more grounded and more able to lead. But you gotta trust that process.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:31)
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
I almost used to walk into, you know, holiday celebrations with family with this invisible, like, badge of exhaustion. Like, I had to prove how hard I was working. I needed them to know I was super busy. And then now I want to walk in, like, I just want to walk in calm and, just be the very present version of myself that catches the joke and laughs.
And I'm not still carrying all the weight of the world on my shoulders through the holiday dinners. Because honestly, I don't think that the people around the table, they don't need my to-do list. They just need me. They just want to see me. They just want to talk to me and know more about what's going on in my life. I want that connection with them. And I want to know those same things about them.
So if I'm too stuck in my to-do list and I'm too stuck in all the things that are going on in the meeting and the conversations all swirling around in my head, then I miss out on all of that, which is the whole point of the holidays, right? Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (19:34)
Yeah, right.
Yeah. So maybe that is the takeaway today. Not whether to share or not to not share, but just like how we share. ⁓ I think it's less about the disclosure and more about the discernment and who needs.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:45)
Mmm,
Charisse Deschenes (19:52)
Who needs to know what's and what's the cost of letting them in? And sometimes sharing brings closeness and sometimes it just reopens that mental tab that you were trying to close before you left.
Kellye Mazzoli (20:04)
That's
very true, right? And I think this week as we're preparing for people to head home for the holidays, it is worth asking, what parts of your work do you want to carry into that space? What parts do you, maybe what parts can you set down? Can you tell the truth without necessarily telling all the gory details of the story? I mean, you can connect without just confessing every negative thing.
that might be pressing on your mind or just even if it's just the pressure of it all, like I think you can do that. I think that if you are very intentional about like what are the great things that are happening sort of, what are the things that you're grateful for? What are the things that you're appreciative of in your community, in your city, in the job that you do? If you can take that into that space and that's what you share, like it doesn't.
just because there are other parts to it doesn't make those any less real or honest. And so like you said, yeah, it's not about whether or not we share, it's about how we share. We can connect. Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (21:09)
Well, because, you know, being unmuted isn't about just saying everything that you're thinking. It's about saying what, what's real and what's right for the, the room that you're in at that time.
Kellye Mazzoli (21:21)
So as you walk into those family gatherings, like maybe just take a breath. And remember, you don't have to perform peace you can just create it.
Charisse Deschenes (21:29)
And maybe that's the most radical kind of leadership re-practice all year long, choosing presence over pressure.
Kellye Mazzoli (21:35)
Yeah, yeah, thank you. We'll see you next week. I hope that you enjoy your holidays. Take care everyone and remember to stay unmuted.
