Kellye Mazzoli (00:32)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Unmuted. Today we're going to be talking about building our own businesses and how that connects with city management. So Charisse when we were in Tampa, just in the last part of October for ICMA, something kept coming up in conversations that I was having. So I'm curious if this was similar for you. And I would say it wasn't dramatic. It wasn't that everything's falling apart.
It was much quieter than that. started hearing leaders say things like, I'm really not sure I want to keep doing this. Or I'm tired in a way, in a different way than I have been. And I don't know what my next chapter looks like. But I'm kind of feeling like it may not be city management. So, and these were people with decades.
of experience who are talented and thoughtful and very committed leaders who really have held their organizations together for years. And what I found intriguing was that they were genuinely considering walking away, not because they failed or were failing, but because I think in many ways what I was hearing is that the structure and the environment around them is failing them. So,
Anyway, think the cost is getting higher for those of us in city management or for those of us who were in city management. And I don't think that the support has kept pace. It took me back really whenever I was hearing these sort of thoughts coming from colleagues and friends and people that I'd met for the first time too. But it took me back to that second half of 2021.
or maybe even the first part of 2021 when I started really asking myself kind of quietly while I was still an assistant city manager, kind of similar questions, right? I was still in city management. I was still in the role, still carrying the pace and the pressure, but I really started feeling something shift for me. And the question would not leave me alone. And it was really, is there a way to support the profession in a meaningful way?
Charisse Deschenes (02:31)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (02:36)
And does it mean that I have to be in the profession to support the profession? So that was the question that actually turned into City Boss Coaching, my business, which I officially launched in 2022. And now years later, I was sitting in Tampa hearing these leaders asking the same kinds of questions I did. So.
You know, and this is all while you're also, Cherise, in the middle of building your own business too. So I thought, why not do an episode on this? You know, so we can talk about what it is that we're both trying to do. Cause I think it's really simple. I think we're trying to build our own tables, right? Build our own tables in a way that give, it gives back real value to city management today. And not just in our own lives, but also for those in the profession.
to help them keep going. What do you think? What was Tampa like for you? What did you notice?
Charisse Deschenes (03:28)
Yeah, yeah,
Kellye, I mean, I think that, you know, I think you're you're spot on with that observation in Tampa and, you know, building seats around that table for the discussions. I like that you said that this is a table that we're sitting around or a table that we can, you know, tables have so many implications in life from like the gathering portion to what it means to be a part of something, all of the things. So thank you for
Thank you for saying it in that particular way. And I would say many things stood out to me in Tampa. And some of those conversations I did have, and I think, well, maybe a little bit of being on the other side of things too. People maybe are more drawn to have those open and honest conversations with us about, know, stepping away to some degree. So, yeah, I think that that was a big aha moment that it's not getting better. It's
Kellye Mazzoli (04:13)
That is very true.
Charisse Deschenes (04:21)
it's getting more challenging for city management leaders out there. And another thing that I tried to do while I was in Tampa, because I'm building this health coaching business lead from center is that I went to those sessions that were intentionally about health or intentionally about wellbeing or mental health. And there were so many amazing conversations going on around the table, especially those where you had the workshop.
to have that discussion, but also just showing that need for support. So I think that people in that position, they're not in crisis. They're kind of gaining clarity around the work that they're doing. And it's them naming what's really not sustainable for them in that particular moment, too. So I think that those types of conversations were really valuable in.
in Tampa while we were there. And what I see now is that you ask the questions early yourself when you went through this uncertainty back in 2021. And I think we both had this thought of who am I if I'm not the role and who am I if I'm not in the role. And you built something out of it. Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (05:15)
Yes.
It took me, ⁓ honestly, took a, yeah, it took, and yeah, you
do, and it takes a little while to unravel yourself from the identity and the role, for sure, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (05:47)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And it's a finding a way to, I think for both of us is, as you mentioned earlier, just finding a way to serve that profession. Even when we're not in that profession any longer, we still have this heart for service and this heart for public service. So yeah, I think that's so.
Kellye Mazzoli (06:09)
Yeah. And isn't that why we're here doing this podcast?
Charisse Deschenes (06:11)
Right,
right. It's yeah, I mean I'd say it's an identity shift, you know Sure
Kellye Mazzoli (06:16)
Yeah. So do you want to talk about that first, Charisse? I mean, maybe let's talk
about the identity shift that it takes whenever you start your own business, whenever you step out.
Charisse Deschenes (06:23)
Yeah.
Sure. Well, you know, thinking about it from the perspective, know, city management and service and local government give your life a very specific shape and the title, the responsibility, the constant demand that you have in that role. And, you know, you're needed. People need you in that moment. And you wake up in the moment and and every day is like that. And then when you step away from that,
Kellye Mazzoli (06:34)
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (06:52)
you you wake up in the moment and you finally put your phone down. And even when it's exhausting, it gives you a sense of being, well, just thinking about like the difference between being in the role. You still pick up the phone. It's exhausting and it gives you the sense of being necessary with a greater purpose. And when you step outside of that, even just a little bit, you realize how much
Kellye Mazzoli (07:13)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (07:17)
of your worth has been tied up in that being needed. And when that noise drops, it feels like maybe the bottom's fallen out a little bit. I don't know. It's just, it's something new.
Kellye Mazzoli (07:26)
Yeah. Hey, I mean, you go you go
from needing like hundreds of people who who who need you to make decisions, who need you to fix challenges and blocks and things like that. The whole idea of feeling necessary. And then the next day. You feel pretty unnecessary. It does feel like the bottom is dropped up. So, yeah, no, I couldn't agree more with what what you've laid out there, Charisse. I think inside of a city
you always have constraints, right? We're always doing what we can, where we're at with what we have. There's always these deadlines, there's always politics, there's always limited resources, there's, gosh, there's regulations and there's only so much staff capacity. And then there's all of council's priorities.
that creates all of these boundaries everywhere. And that actually creates a structure that carries you whether you notice it or not. So the big difference between city management for me and building my own business, was it not that I, I mean, I drew on all the things that I knew from city management, but it was, but all of a sudden, like, I mean, you only have the one boss.
You know, you're not listening to an entire council. Like you are the council. You're the council. You're the city manager. You're sort of kind of a makeshift, you know, attorney sometimes risk assessor, analyst, marketer, sales person. Like you become all of the people that you used to have a team. So there really is no buffer. And you are a hundred percent responsible for your vision, your energy, your revenue.
and your boundaries. And at first, it feels like freedom. And it's like, finally, I get to make all the decisions. And then at the same time, it can feel like a free fall. Because all of a sudden it's like, wow, I'm used to leading. I'm used to leading through others, right? Like you get used to having to bring the team together, encouraging people, empowering people, doing all the leadership things. And all of a sudden, the only person you're leading is yourself.
So, you know, I think city managers, if they decide to take the sleep from being a city manager into running their own business, even if it's in support of city management, one of the big things that you'll notice is that, you know, they're used to having a team. They're used to delegating, used to being in rooms full of people. And when it's your business, you cannot delegate the clarity. You cannot delegate your direction. You don't have a Council to give you that. You cannot delegate your relationship with yourself. And that is a big.
big, like, big thing.
Charisse Deschenes (10:00)
Yeah, no, that's a completely, that's a huge shift. And you've had four years to digest that. And I've had about one. You know, it has been one of my biggest shifts and it's, it's something that, you know, you have to move from reacting to whatever's in your inbox or what's coming at you at that moment and shifting gears to boy, isn't it a gift to sit down and think about what do I want to build and why?
Kellye Mazzoli (10:27)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (10:27)
it's a gift, but it's also, it's exposing. ⁓ you start to see your own patterns of like where you really want to focus on and the things that you don't want to focus on. And, I've had those days where, I know I really need to get to this one thing, but I'm really enjoying the creative side of something. And you know what? Sometimes I just stay in that creative moment because I really enjoy it knowing that.
Kellye Mazzoli (10:31)
Very.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (10:52)
I'm going to have to go back and really do that thing that I don't want to do. But I don't know. I think that's that overwork in one area and maybe not in another. But you start to see the patterns in yourself and you start to really refine the way that you work, which I have loved every minute of that. OK, maybe I haven't loved every minute of it, but I reflect back and know how much that I do value that.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:12)
You
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (11:20)
and I also think about this opportunity to give back to city management and for both of us, the businesses that we're building are grounded in that clarity that we care about city management and we're not just filling another role. We're choosing to, we're choosing that work that supports the people, who are still in those roles that, that we held.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:37)
Mm-mm.
Yeah. Yeah, I think from what you were saying, like I can really, I can remember hiding behind the fires, right? Like there's so many fires happening and it's like, it's great. So if I don't want to do one thing, I'm sure there's a fire somewhere else that I can go concentrate on. And you, all of a sudden you don't have that. You don't have other people's fires. You don't have HR issues. You don't, you know, I know when you're in it, you're like, not another, but at the same time, it means like, you know, I didn't have to be in mining.
Charisse Deschenes (11:53)
⁓ huh.
haha
Kellye Mazzoli (12:12)
my email inbox or maybe I got to miss a meeting or something to go deal with another meeting, hiding behind the fires. Yeah, and building the business and looking for ways to support people who are still in the role has been rewarding and fulfilling. And I do wanna talk a little bit about the skills that I think translate.
into service in a different way. So to go from city management and into owning your own business. you know, this is the part that I really wish that city executives understood sooner. The skills you build inside the city are not only transferable, but they are very valuable and they are absolutely needed in so many places. And they are exactly what makes you so capable of giving back to the profession in new ways, right?
So city management really normalizes abilities that I think are rare everywhere else. You really learn to think in systems, you navigate crises, you understand budgets and trade-offs, you communicate in ways that move people who do not agree, right, like constantly. You navigate multiple stakeholder dynamics, you resolve conflict without burning everything down, right? So if we really wanna name it,
and put just like single word, single word adjectives on there. Like you're a strategist, you're a communicator, you're also a facilitator, you're a project manager, you're a program manager, you're a negotiator, you're a systems architect, you're a conflict navigator, you're a culture shaper, you're a leadership developer. I mean, those are the things that you really are. And those are the exact capabilities that coaching, maybe advisory work, facilitation, consulting, those are all built on those things.
Charisse Deschenes (13:29)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (13:55)
When I work with city executives today through City Boss Coaching, I'm not teaching them how to be leaders. I think that there are so many great places for them to get that kind of training. What I'm doing is I'm actually helping them see and use the leadership they already have in a way that is more sustainable. So trying to sort of like suss out the difference between like training and development.
coaching versus consulting, like they're all actually very different things. And so that's how I like to think about it is like, I'm not teaching you how to be a leader. I think that every single person who has walked through my door has already been a pretty darn good leader. Like, there's no way that I can tell them exactly like I'm not. So that's where consultants come in, hire a consultant to come in and to look at the very specifics and to give you those specific recommendations.
Charisse Deschenes (14:37)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (14:47)
But if you wanna feel better and you want to use your leadership in ways that you haven't before, that's where I come in. If you wanna feel like this job is more sustainable, that's where I come in. That's where the coaching comes in. you know, and I'm curious what you have to add to that, Charisse, because whenever I think about your business, like, I think it's along those lines as well.
Charisse Deschenes (15:03)
Yeah, yeah.
absolutely. you know, I'm building lead from center now and I'm in the moment of all of this right now. So ⁓ I'm still, I'm still like blowing up ideas in my head, but the kind of the through line for that is coaching and health coaching and leadership. But really, like you said, leaders are already leaders. It's helping people work together through problems to
Kellye Mazzoli (15:13)
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (15:29)
take them to the next level in their own life. that's, sure, yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:32)
Can I ask you a question?
I'm just curious, like, do you feel like the skills, since you're so fresh into this, because I mean, I feel like, like you said, I've had four years, like, I mean, I'm not fresh in all of this. Like, I've successfully built the business and I'm continuing to expand it and grow it, but you're in it and making that jump and that leap right now. So do you feel like you have transferable skills that you learned while inside City Hall?
Charisse Deschenes (15:51)
Mm-hmm.
Oh yeah, absolutely. think that like going through the training, I mean, you've been through it too. I mean, there's some skills that you learn through the coaching certifications, motivational interviewing, things like that. But
really the confidence, the understanding that you can ask people hard questions and not be afraid of what they're going to say and know that you're there to support them. mean, some of those basic foundational pieces of coaching, really the strength and the ability to do the work comes from the experience and the 20 plus years and, you know, local government and.
being really challenged in that way. I think they're very transferable skills and you know I think I use the skills that like this opportunity gives you the ability to really think about those skills that you enjoyed developing. And when I think about who I was you know starting out in urban planning and loving community planning and loving
to the facilitation and getting to know the people one-on-one and helping a community work on their own vision and working in facilitation teams and strategic plans and all the things that go along with that. We're building strategic plans for you individually in a way ⁓ through this coaching. So yeah, I think there's so many things Are you sorry you asked me that question?
Kellye Mazzoli (17:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
no, no, no. I think that's a great answer, because I mean, I was just wondering
how you're feeling about that. Like, do you think you actually learned the things that you needed to be able to run your own business now that there aren't new skills to develop and shifts and things like I think there's a lot of mind shifts that I learned over the last four years that I've had to make. Right. Profit is one of those like very weird things for me to think about. Like it was never about profit in city management. Now, all of a sudden, you know, that's a big deal.
Charisse Deschenes (17:34)
Yeah, yeah.
Yep.
Yeah,
yeah, it was about the triple bottom line, maybe not just the bottom line, you know, yeah, all the things. I think that this is just just the through line when we think about both of our businesses, our businesses, we both come from that local government background. We both want to give back. We both want to coach. We both have this ability to, I don't know, just we we gain our our kind of purpose from helping others. And I think that that aligns
Kellye Mazzoli (17:51)
So, and the marketing in this, right. Yeah, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (18:18)
us well for the coaching world.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:21)
I love that. That's really nice. So let's talk about what our businesses actually do for the profession. I think it probably helps to name what this looks like day to day. So for me, for City Boss Coaching, it's about being a steady partner to to those that I'm coaching, to those city executives. So, you know, they come to me and they feel fragmented. They feel
you know, basically pulled in multiple directions. They feel overextended. Sometimes they come to me and they feel like they've been disappearing under the role. And, you know, there's a lot of talk about work-life balance. There's occasional talk about burnout, but really what it comes down to is like they're really, they're fragmented. They feel they have all of these desires to be present for family. They have desires to be present in their personal life, in their health.
and all of the areas that they feel like they're neglecting usually in order to have this professional life in city management, which is really, it's kind of a 24 seven job. Let's not pretend that it isn't. some days it really looks like I'm helping a city manager or city administrator to walk into a council meeting fully grounded instead of being reactive. So sometimes the session is just to sort of get them to that point where they're just like.
Okay, whatever they throw at me, I got it this time, right? If you're having those issues, sometimes that happens while they're at the dais. And so we just make sure that they are in, you know, I'll work with that person to make sure that they are in the best possible mindset or frame of mind as they walk into said meeting. Some days, you know, it looks like helping someone decide whether it's time to stay or to go.
Charisse Deschenes (19:40)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:59)
And if you're interested in that sort of thing, I actually have a free ebook on my website, citybosscoach.com that can help walk you through that decision. No coaching needed. You can actually do some internal reflection on that. But a lot of people want somebody to talk this out. It's a big decision for them to make. And so they want somebody to help coach them through that decision to make sure that they make the best possible decision for them.
And I'm going to tell you right now, there's not a right decision and a wrong decision, even though I think 100 % of people come into it going, got to make the right decision. It's just a decision. And we start working on that mindset and understanding. Yes, it has consequences. Yes, it's important, but there is no right and wrong. So.
Charisse Deschenes (20:43)
you
Kellye Mazzoli (20:44)
I would say also, you know, some of the other things that we talk about are around communication and how they're communicating maybe with their directors or director team or their direct reports for some of the department heads that I coach. Sometimes it's about setting boundaries. Anyway, it's always about restoring the person inside the position. So,
really honestly all of it serves the profession because when your executives are grounded, whether it's your city manager, deputy city manager, assistant city manager, your department heads, whenever those people in the the C-suite, so to speak, when they're grounded, I think the entire organization benefits. All of staff benefits, all of the community will benefit because when you have good people who are in a good mind space,
they'll stay longer because they're not burning out in silence. And to me, that's sort of key of what I feel like, what value I feel like my business brings back into the profession. What about you, Charisse?
Charisse Deschenes (21:47)
Well, first I'm to reflect back what you just said. Good people stay longer because they're not burning out in silence. And I also wanted to say that, you know, having been one of your clients in the past, Kellye, you know, you go into a coaching session thinking that you're going to talk about one problem. And when you're sitting with Kellye, she gets to the root of the problem. And that's a benefit of coaching. And you can completely
shift the maybe sometimes the mindset, sometimes it isn't the issue that you thought you were talking about in the first place, it's something deeper. You usually come out of that conversation with like, okay, so I have this plan and it wasn't the one that I intended, but we're in a good place and we're in a better place and really you helped me recognize in the moment in many, many moments over the years, you know, what direction I needed to go from
from being in a situation of leadership in local government to even helping me decide. Well, you didn't help me decide, I knew, but you helped me and guide me and supported me as a coach. And I really appreciate that. So for me, as I talk a little bit about building my business.
You know, that focuses on helping leaders and organizations. I think this is what I think. Align how they operate. What I think it's going to be. Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (23:10)
What you think it's gonna be? It absolutely is. Like just don't see how it wouldn't, right? I don't see how what you're
gonna do just isn't going to be helping in aligning.
Charisse Deschenes (23:21)
That's what I hope because that really is a value of mine, is helping, you know, that function move forward and coming together and collaboration and all those things, are values to me in my personal life and also in the work that I do. And so I think, you know, I may be helping cities rethink their leadership pipelines or helping teams communicate in different ways or walking alongside a leader and
you know, trying to realign their role and what they're actually valuing. These are some of the ideas as I build this business and I build my value statement and I build my mission that I'm refining in Lead From Center, right as we speak. So I'm getting clarity on that and I'm trying to move forward and learn a little bit more about what I want to serve right now. I'm really structuring it towards
you know, coaching and health coaching, but in the future, I'd like to really drive that in the direction of helping groups and teams as well. But I think that that again, the through line here is that we're both doing work that makes city management more humane. And that's our goal. We just we want it to be more efficient. And where that idea that you said earlier about building our own table, it connects back to giving value to that profession that we serve and.
I don't know, we're not building tables so that we can sit alone at it. We're building tables so city managers and their teams have somewhere safe and solid to sit for a minute.
Kellye Mazzoli (24:51)
Mm Yeah. Yeah, that safety is really, really important. And I try to build that in with confidentiality of my clients. So unless somebody says they're a client, you wouldn't know. don't know if you've actually said it before, Charisse So maybe this is the first time that you've said that on the podcast. So, yeah, we've been we've been we've been working together as colleagues and and then in different relationships ever since.
Charisse Deschenes (25:07)
Hahaha
Kellye Mazzoli (25:16)
It's been a lot of fun. And I would say too, is like you said, yeah, we're doing work that makes city management more humane. And I think it's not, it's actually sort of, and it's not efficient, right? It's not necessarily about the efficiency as much as about the person. And so I think there's plenty out there on how to be more efficient. I think what we're doing is we're teaching people how to be more effective.
Charisse Deschenes (25:30)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (25:43)
really ultimately. So let's talk a little bit now about capacity and not capability. So if you can run a city, there is no doubt in my mind that you can absolutely run a business. The barrier here is not talent. The barrier is honestly, it's your capacity. So in my mind, city management taught me how to operate in crisis mode. I learned to sprint for really long
distances and I got really good at carrying a whole lot of weight Entrepreneurship though is different it does require for you to actually slow your nervous system down so that you can make really clean and clear decisions and it requires you to set those boundaries for yourself and for your clients if you're coaching right if that's where you're going so it really requires you to know who you are outside of that role that title that identity that had been set
for you. So that's what I learned and what I what I feel like I learned was different. So when I look at building city boss coaching, the turning point was not when I figured out a marketing strategy. It was actually when I learned to regulate myself to work from a clarity instead of from like adrenaline. There was a point where I was literally customizing every single
proposal and really like trying to hustle and all of a sudden I felt like I had the same level of stress and pressure on me as I did that I recreated what I was living in the city management role. And I had to step back and go, that's not at all what I wanted. So I had to learn to regulate myself and I had to get that clarity and I had to sort of stop the adrenaline and because I realized it's not necessary. And that's when.
the business started feeling sustainable for me and I think it got even more useful for the clients that I was serving. Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (27:32)
Yeah, It kind of stuck with me a little bit in my own words, like replacing the energy that was once there with that same energy and trying to do something different with that same anxiety. I had to learn that isn't the way that I function the best either. when I think of, we did, yeah. That's what we knew. And that's what, you know.
Kellye Mazzoli (27:50)
I mean, we did for years, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (27:57)
That's what didn't work for me.
Kellye Mazzoli (27:58)
But it's not, but I learned it wasn't necessary. Not only did I not want it, it wasn't even necessary.
Charisse Deschenes (28:05)
when I think about, you know, building, when we talk about this podcast, I'm muted and my business lead from center, that the work doesn't grow because we hustle harder. It grows because we get more honest and we start thinking smarter about the way that we do our work. We get clarity about what we believe in.
We're slowing down enough to design offerings that genuinely help people and we pay attention to our own limits and That was again a hard lesson to learn And I think that it's also why The support we are giving back to city management is different because we're not telling people to grind their way through something We're helping them build this internal capacity So that they can keep doing important work without losing themselves
you know, yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (28:52)
Yeah, yeah,
it's not like here's how I did it. If I'm telling somebody how I did it nine times out of 10, I'm probably saying don't do it this way. This was really stressful. This wasn't exactly, you know, I did. I kind of stumbled upon some of probably the right way, quote right ways, not the right ways, but better ways to do things and then not so good. So, yeah, I think that is it is about building that internal capacity and that way they can keep doing that work.
And it's not about us advising on what we did or we didn't do or how we did it, but it really is helping them come to their own decisions about how to move forward, what's best for them. So let's talk about something I mentioned, which is having one boss and the huge shock. I think it's just as a big shock. So I think it surprised, at least it surprised me. So I don't wanna talk for both of us, but it surprised me.
Charisse Deschenes (29:37)
huh.
Kellye Mazzoli (29:46)
that when you're in city management, you have a big team, you have a city council, you have a whole organization, heck, you have a whole community. And so you honestly, at least for me, when people would ask me what I did for a living, I would tell them, I started telling them, at first it was a joke and then I got serious about it, is that I'm a professional meeting attender. Like I think there's an art to attending a meeting, I think I'm a professional meeting attender, I can sit through so many of them back to back to back. But yeah, so really I felt like...
Charisse Deschenes (30:01)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (30:10)
You know, really, when you're in city management, you have back to back meetings and a full inbox. You're surrounded by a ton of buzz and a ton of activity. And you may be exhausted, but you can still feel like you're having an impact because there's so much going on. So what I want to caution people is that they're sort of the shock that in your own business, you lose that. Like the meetings are not built in whenever you first start out. Like the staff is not built in. You don't have any staff. It's just you.
Charisse Deschenes (30:29)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (30:36)
And that external affirmation really is not there. So there are these days where it's just you and your laptop sitting in your living room slash kitchen. Like I do so many days. I mean, you start having to seek out like just external noise. It's nice for a while. I do love my space and I've curated in such a way that I like to be in it and I'm comfortable.
But sometimes I gotta go work at a coffee shop and sometimes, you know, I found a coworking space that just opened near me that I'm gonna be using. And that's kind of necessary to have some buzz and some other activity around me, even if it's not my own staff, because I'm so used to that. yeah, some days it's just you and your laptop. But that's where, you know, the autonomy kicks in and it really shows up as kind of like responsibility. So you are now the one who sets the pace.
You are the one who decides what matters and you're the one who has to sit with your own doubts and you still have to make moves, right? Because if you just sit in your own doubts, nothing ever happens. So you sit in your own doubts, but then you still have to find your way forward. And so for a lot of leaders, this may be the first time that they have to actually face themselves without any of that distraction around them, which I mean, I was one of those people. So anyway.
Charisse Deschenes (31:51)
Yeah, well, you know, I'll raise my hand to that too, Kellye. But I'd like to talk about that. There's a beautiful side to that. You know, you start seeing your strengths when you're distracted and you're just moving about it, it's
Kellye Mazzoli (31:55)
Yeah
Hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (32:06)
you don't have time for the clarity. You don't have time for that moment of clarity at all. So you see how quickly you can understand a situation now and you see how deeply you can support it, a person or a team, and you see how much your experience actually matters. So, you know, once you see that clearly, you can't unsee it and the clarity is exactly what we're trying to reflect back to.
Kellye Mazzoli (32:26)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (32:31)
city managers and executives through our businesses. And, you know, we see what you're carrying every day. We know we've been there and we also know what you're capable of. And your work is designed to help you see others too and to use it in a way that does not cost you everything.
Kellye Mazzoli (32:48)
Yeah, yeah. And our work is really designed to help you see it. Yeah, so. Let's if you're thinking about your own next chapter, so for the audience, like, you know, if you're thinking like, what's next? Because I know we heard a lot of people already starting to think about that, like they really are the questions out there. You don't even have to be, you know, this is this might just be a fun exercise. Like we want we want.
Charisse Deschenes (32:54)
Yeah.
You
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (33:13)
you to be thoughtful here. So when we talk about some of the different things that you might do if you step away from the profession but still want to contribute to the profession, there's coaching like what I'm doing, what Charisse is planning on doing. There's consulting and I could name a few businesses that are doing that. And then there's also, you could build a whole different business that isn't based on that sort of thing.
I'm thinking of Sam Tolles, he's got Civi Social with the social media, you know, and consulting. I'm thinking of Anna Cortez out of out of Washington. And I'm thinking of Sarah Schillerstrom, who does both like team leadership and development and coaching. So there are a lot of people out there who are already starting to do this. And we know that even as we're sort of talking about this thing, that
city leaders have to operate inside some ethical frameworks and every city has its own rules. Every contract has its own nuances. And you know, so there may be conflicts of interest and there may be rules about what you do for outside work or don't and how you spend your time. So we're not here to tell anyone what you can or cannot do. What we want to do is just invite you into something that maybe is not a side hustle.
Right? We're not saying you need another job on top of the job. And we're also not saying to just up and quit your job either. But there is a way, there's a different way of thinking about your own value. And you don't actually have to launch anything while you're still in the role. And you don't have to make any sudden moves. So you can start by getting really honest with yourself about the problems that you solve best. Right? What are the things that really light you up whenever you do them?
Charisse Deschenes (34:28)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (34:52)
I never assign homework, but I always assign journaling, right? I'm like, just write it out, write it out. What problems do you solve best? And just have a quick session, spend five minutes thinking and being honest with yourself and noticing those things that you're really good at. And also the, you know, what are the things that you do where people breathe easier whenever you walk in the room? They're like, good. Finally, you know, Joe is here. I don't have to worry about it. He's got it. He'll handle it. What are those things?
and the parts of your work that feel the most like you. There's parts of this obviously that you like, even if there are parts that you don't. So what are the parts that you do? So take some time to reflect on that. I think that you can do that regardless of where you're at in your position. It doesn't require you to start a whole business. And if you start with this kind of clarity, then it will serve you.
because it will help you understand whether you stay in the profession another 20 years or eventually build something of your own, that if you do decide to build something, you'll be stepping into it with a lot of integrity, a lot of intention, and you're not jumping into it out of desperation. So I really don't recommend just like up and quitting, but really taking some time to reflect. And...
And if you need help going through that, like I said, I've got a free resource on my website. Just go download that at citybosscoach.com. And that can help you walk through this decision and take that time. Or contact me, contact Charisse. We would be happy. I mean, we're both on LinkedIn. We're really easy to find. And just DM us and let us know that you need help and we'll support you. And if you want to
integrate more health into your into where you're at and the role that you're at. Charisse is is is your gal like she is the one to call. And if you want help navigating that and she can help you also help navigate navigate this should I stay should I go question as well. So we're both happy to help you. Don't don't think for two seconds that you can't do that. But you know, just take some time. Step into it with integrity and intention and not not desperation. Right.
You're gonna be like, crap, what am I gonna do for money? You know, like, no, you wanna be in a good place whenever you exit.
Charisse Deschenes (36:53)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's so important to say. I also want to add that not everyone listening wants a new business, and that is completely OK. You might just want more alignment inside your role in some of those tools that you just mentioned right now, especially journaling or just getting at clarity is one way you can do that. And you might want support or language or tools that
support you in your current chapter so that it feels more sustainable. just looking internal in that way can really help or, you know, with a coach. So, you know, the value of conversations like this is that they open up possibility.
Kellye Mazzoli (37:25)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (37:35)
And for some that possibility will look like a new role for another city and for others it will look like staying and doing it differently. But for some it might eventually look like creating something new outside of City Hall. But just feel like you have that support that you can explore that. I think that's what's so important and that's what was identified in Tampa is people want to like have that ability to dream a little bit. So
In all those scenarios that we talked about, what you've built inside the profession is not wasted. It is the foundation for what you do next in your career.
Kellye Mazzoli (38:13)
Yeah, yeah. When we left Tampa, I think I had a question that just kept echoing for me. And it was the same one that I had had years ago. Is there a way to support this profession in a really meaningful, valuable way? Can I continue to give back? You know, I have such passion for the profession and the work that we do. I'm a huge advocate. So it's not that I wanted to walk away necessarily, but I just wanted to find a way to better support the...
profession in a more meaningful way. And for me, City Boss Coaching was that answer. And for both of us, think Unmuted and doing this podcast is part of the answer as well. So we did not build these things to escape city management. We really built them for city management. And so, you know, the people who are there who hold everything together for everyone else have somewhere to be held themselves.
And so that leaders who are tired in a different way have someone in their corner who understands why.
Charisse Deschenes (39:06)
And if you're listening and you feel a curious curiosity inside yourself You're not at the end of your story take take a listen to that inner voice And what is it saying to you? You might just be at the beginning of a new chapter where you finally let your work serve you,
Kellye Mazzoli (39:24)
Yeah, and through our businesses, through this podcast, through the spaces we are creating, our focus is really simple. We want to give you real tangible value as the people who are leading cities today. So help you stay grounded. We want to help you stay whole and help you remember that you are more than a title. We are in this with you just from a different seat now.
and we hope this was inspiring and would love to hear if anybody is interested in starting their own business. We're here for you and we're here even if you don't and you just wanna navigate the profession a little easier. We will see you next time and remember to stay unmuted.
