Charisse Deschenes (00:34)
Welcome to the Unmuted Podcast. It's the space where service-driven leaders remember who they are and reconnect to their voice, the values and their vitality. I'm Charisse.
Kellye (00:46)
And I'm Kellye, your co-host. Today's episode is a really joyful one. I'm really excited to talk about the importance of movement and creativity, but not in the way that one might expect. It's not about productivity. It's not about performance, but it is about presence. It is about play and becoming more fully ourselves.
Charisse Deschenes (01:07)
And so often we lose track of the movement part of us that the joy that the part of us that makes us feel really good. And we need to try new things to make our bodies move and make things happen. So this is the part of us that's essential and not extra.
Kellye (01:23)
You know, so for this episode, I wanted to talk about something that Charisse you know that I've started doing again, but that's roller skating. And so, yeah, I mean, for the audience, I was a competitive roller skater for about, I don't know, the first 20 years of my life. So I really enjoyed it. Artistic roller skating, not derby. A lot of people ask me that question. I don't know why everybody thinks that I would be.
Charisse Deschenes (01:33)
Yes. Yeah.
Kellye (01:51)
you know, in Derby, but I take it as a compliment. So no, but I did the really fun, flowy, artistic skating. So it's something I picked up again, and it really honestly brought out this childlike joy in me again that I didn't even realize that I missed. And you know, it reminded me that movement isn't a chore, right? It can be a form of expression. And I'd kind of forgotten that. And I really, really enjoyed that and loved that about skating. What about you, Charisse?
Charisse Deschenes (02:20)
Well, first of all, I wanted to say that I could see completely how people might think that you would be a competitive skater. You have that personality where you can be driven and you can also just have fun. I can see that. And for me, I can really relate to that trying new things or trying something you haven't tried before in, well, a very long time. Lately, I've been lap swimming again and ⁓
Kellye (02:33)
Thank you.
Charisse Deschenes (02:46)
Well, it's humbling, first of all, something I haven't done for many years since high school. so I've really been enjoying just the rhythm and the flow, the breathing, the presence that you have, like in the pool when you're doing something kind of new. well, it is new, but it's a reflection of how, you know, you're just in the moment, which is so important sometimes. And I've started doing.
Kellye (02:59)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (03:11)
sauna as well. So I'll swim and then I'll go to the sauna for, you know, 10, 15, sometimes I'll do it twice or like 30 minutes of sauna and just relax, put the tools away. I will bring the phone in every now and again, but only to play a podcast or something that's like kind of a mindful meditation thing. But no expectations to be the best swimmer or anything out there, just your presence.
Kellye (03:26)
I was gonna say.
Charisse Deschenes (03:40)
and the flow of the swim. It's amazing. I love it.
Kellye (03:43)
Yeah, yeah.
And I love that you brought up presence, That you're in this, that craving for presence. I think that really says something. And I think if people are sort of feeling that or understanding like, I really just wanna be in this moment that we're yearning for more than just movement through motions. Like we are really craving.
Charisse Deschenes (03:52)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye (04:08)
What I'm hearing from both of us is sort of a return to ourselves, something that we've enjoyed doing before, the swimming, the skating, and really returning to ourselves.
Charisse Deschenes (04:16)
Yes.
Yeah, I love. Yes, absolutely. Returning to ourselves. also do spend a lot of time on the beach or in the woods hiking and just kind of call it forest bathing, actually hike. But, you know, it's a it's a mindful time to ground yourself as well. So there's exercise and there's all of the things the the good the beautiful, you know, views and the.
smell of the air and the sounds around you that just brings something back that you really need as a person. And so, I don't know, I just, feel like that's really important to all of us, especially where we are today. So.
Kellye (04:59)
Yeah, that sounds really beautiful. Like I can already picture myself there on the beach grounding with you. I wish I was, right? ⁓ Yes, parts of me really miss Washington. Parts of me have, we've been having a lot of fun here in Louisiana too. So, well, I want to move into a question for us to consider. And it's, you know, like what happens when we stop
Charisse Deschenes (05:06)
I wish you were too.
Kellye (05:28)
doing those things, like these things that we're talking about, like what happens when we stop doing them, when we don't move, when we don't play, when we don't create? What do you think?
Charisse Deschenes (05:40)
Well, I think we become muted, right? We lose that access, like you said, to the spontaneity, the wonder that, you know, that who we are, we get stuck in what's expected of us instead of like really imagining or what's our soul calling for.
Kellye (05:57)
Yeah, yeah. And really, you know, I think whenever you lose that wonder, that spontaneity, and you become muted, it's really, really almost dangerous for us as leaders, right? It's dangerous for anyone. But I mean, I coach city executives, and that is really where I worry about them losing that spontaneity, losing the innovation and the creativity that
Charisse Deschenes (06:23)
All right.
Kellye (06:25)
out of it because I really found for myself that whenever I stopped playing, when I stopped doing those things, that I lost like a level of imagination and I stopped imagining things. And that affected me as a leader in the sense that how do you envision anything new? How do you move into something completely new and creative and innovative? Like it doesn't just come out of.
Charisse Deschenes (06:36)
Right. Yeah.
Kellye (06:50)
then Erin, like you have to cultivate it. And so if I'm not cultivating it in my personal life, why would I expect it to just magically appear in my professional life?
Charisse Deschenes (06:53)
Great.
Right. Leadership requires that imagination. It requires you to have that to grow. You need that space. what is, like in the work that you do as a leader, what doesn't come out of sometimes the unexpected, right? And especially when you're doing leadership in local government or nonprofit work, you're really, you're really
Kellye (07:08)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (07:27)
always shifting. It's always shifting gears and you have to be creative in the moment. So I think you're right. We need that movement. And I have been thinking about, you know, it's a little bit like a croquet match. Croquet. Yeah. Yeah. It's like croquet. Okay, so.
Kellye (07:43)
What? Okay, no, you gotta, hold on, you gotta tell me about this. What do you mean croquet? Why is it like a, I don't know a about
croquet, I'm not gonna lie.
Charisse Deschenes (07:54)
Well, the point is I don't really know about croquet either, Kellye, but I recently played again. It's been many years. I think the last time I played croquet was like when I was five years old. But my family, my family has a set. We had a party. And the three of the family members that I played seemed to know exactly what they were doing. And I was like left back at like trying to get my little croquet ball through the little first gate. And they're on like
Kellye (08:05)
Okay.
No!
Charisse Deschenes (08:21)
seven
and eight and getting to the finish line. And I think they're feeling bad about knocking my croquet ball out of the way by the 13th time, which is part of it. anyway, I totally joke, but it wasn't terrible. It wasn't the best thing ever. while everyone else just seemed to have their sea legs, I didn't. You know what I mean? But yeah.
Kellye (08:23)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm, mm, yeah. See, and I'm really competitive. I'm really competitive.
So I would have been like, I hate this. That would have been the worst. Everybody knows what they're doing and I don't? ⁓ no way.
Charisse Deschenes (08:57)
You know, it's just a Krogan game. It's just a game in the, you know, in the the yard with the family. And, you know, at some point, I know they felt really sorry for me because they're like, you just get your ball along a little bit. And I was like, no, no, we're going to we're going to play it real. I'm going to lose. It's going to be OK. But it was bonding. And that's that's an important thing. You know, bonding, joy, fun play, right?
Kellye (09:09)
⁓ empathy.
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (09:24)
I've heard the saying before that you can learn more about someone in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. And that's kind of what it felt like, you know, a deeper kind of connection.
Kellye (09:32)
Wow. Yeah.
Interesting. I really like that idea that you can learn more about somebody with an hour of play than in a year of conversation. Wow. That's really deep. That's really deep. Well, I love it. Let's move into some of the science behind this too, right? So I wanna share, I'm just like itching to share.
Charisse Deschenes (09:46)
⁓ yeah, yeah.
Okay, okay. Yes, please move on from my
croquet because, you know, that wasn't my most magical moment in life.
Kellye (10:00)
It sounds like it was. It sounds like it was magical for you,
at least for your family. They had a great time. ⁓ So no, the science behind this though, the reason why movement and this novelty that you get in doing things that you haven't done before, you haven't done in a while, is that they stimulate the prefrontal cortex of your brain, right? And that's the part of your brain for those who don't know that is responsible for creativity.
Charisse Deschenes (10:07)
Yeah, I guess.
Mm-hmm.
Kellye (10:27)
It's responsible for empathy. It's responsible for decision making. So it's a really important part of your brain, I think, for a leader. And so there's some science behind it, that movement and novelty actually stimulate that particular part of the brain.
Charisse Deschenes (10:43)
Well, right. And I've heard too that when we move our bodies, whether it's like the lap swimming, the skating, maybe walking barefoot on the beach or whatever it may be, that we really shift our nervous system out of that survival mode and backed into the presence and in the regulation and motion. know, it's just, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
Kellye (10:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. You are so right, Charisse, right? It's the regulation and the motion. And so it reminds me, I'm doing another thing as well, besides skating, that has to do with movement and something that's new to me. About a year ago, I started doing West Coast swing dance. yeah, yep. No partner needed, you just show up. So whenever I dance, I dance with a different person. We go down the line, like, so we switch every like,
Charisse Deschenes (11:21)
Ooh, yes.
Kellye (11:32)
30 seconds. And so you're dancing with somebody new all the time. And it really helps you with this type of social dancing, because then you can dance with anybody, right? Like it really gets you thinking because it's interesting to have a new leader every time while you're learning these new dance moves, because everybody does it a little bit different and they apply pressure a little different and they're learning too. So it's like this really great sort of
Charisse Deschenes (11:42)
Yeah, yeah.
Kellye (11:57)
and ⁓ creativity and flow and listening to music and it's all like really good so I don't know have you have you ever have you had that too?
Charisse Deschenes (12:08)
Well, I want to reflect that, you know, that sounds really amazing and fun to do that type of dance. And you probably learn a lot about yourself, like in that movement and how you're able to shift, you know, like with different partners and take different like roles and responsibilities as that relates back to to leadership as well. But I was thinking about more along the lines of cerebral I've done that kind of touches on a different part of me to calm myself or
in a moment where I'm stressed, do, I do like just drawing sometimes really terrible at it, but it does bring out some joy. And then I've been trying, I took a class last year called visible mending and you're like, what is, what is that? Right. ⁓
Kellye (12:41)
Mm-hmm.
Okay. Yeah. What I mean, I need to
know you have the most interesting stuff. Like I'm like, croquet, visible mending. What is visible mending?
Charisse Deschenes (12:54)
Well,
and I still haven't tried the circus act yet, but you know, maybe later. some visible mending, very simple. It's, you know, thinking back, reflecting back 100 years ago, when we used to mend clothes instead of like buying something new when you get a hole in it. But it was this great course where they teach you all these different techniques to it's not that you are hiding something that's, you know,
Kellye (13:00)
lol
Charisse Deschenes (13:20)
broken or you know, that's that's worn or something like that you're adding to it. So that was kind of fun too. So you know, you get a sweater, it has a little hole in it, you can like stitch on a nice little flower, you know where the hole was, and then it's something new. And it's, it's, it's, it's becoming something that it wasn't. And so I really enjoyed that class. It was just like a few hours of learning. And now I've looked around the house of
Kellye (13:25)
Yeah, very abundant.
Charisse Deschenes (13:48)
You know, do you have a hole in that? I'd really like to repair it. So I've used the skill a couple of times, but it really is that creativity and it hills the burnout when you're going through things to just be in the moment. And I think that that's what a lot of like I was reflecting on swimming to you have to be in the moment. You have to be in your breath and you have to get in that motion. And that's what you're thinking about a lot of times or something like.
Kellye (14:01)
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (14:12)
downhill mountain biking, you really have to focus on what you're doing. Otherwise you can't be thinking about that meeting or something like that. have to focus on the moment. And so in different ways, that's what the visible mending brings to me. I'm focusing in on that, but yeah, just to, it, kind of helps me erase the burnout.
Kellye (14:17)
Right.
It sounds like visible mending is kind of a metaphor for healing. Healing your clothing, but healing yourself sort of piece by piece, stitch by stitch, you know, like that's very cool. I really love that. And, too, I mean, you mentioned burnout here and I'm, just thinking, so I coach city executives as most everyone knows, but
Charisse Deschenes (14:37)
yes, yes. ⁓
Yeah, I love that. It's true.
Kellye (14:58)
One of the things that I noticed for those who come to me with burnout is that there typically is a lack of this movement and this creativity. And honestly, I'm not sure, Charisse, you know, which comes first. I don't know if it is that they're burned out and so they stop doing as much creative movement and flow in their lives because they're burned out. Or maybe it's the other way around. Does the burnout sort of stem
Charisse Deschenes (15:18)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye (15:28)
from not doing those things in your life. mean, you know, I don't know. They're definitely connected. They're definitely connected, but I don't know which comes first. And maybe it's different for different people, but it's, I always see that.
Charisse Deschenes (15:35)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know either. sounds it could it could be one or the other, as you mentioned, and for so many like, you know, reflecting personally, I think it's the burnout brings the creativity. have to force myself to do the creativity. But, you know, just trying five minutes of something different. You know, dancing in the kitchen, taking a walk with no phone. ⁓
Kellye (16:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (16:09)
Try to do something awkward and new for you that you're not going to be good at. And remembering that the goal isn't mastery, it's motion. I think that those things, just challenge yourself when you're starting to feel that burnout a little bit, if you can, if that's what's drawing you away from that creativity.
Kellye (16:26)
Yeah. Yeah. And you're touching on something mastery here. And I think mastery is sort of a fancy way to say perfectionism. I don't know if that's correct me if that's not what you meant. But ⁓
Charisse Deschenes (16:38)
Maybe I don't know
any anyone here that might have that type a personality.
Kellye (16:43)
Oh, I think you're pointing at me. If you can't see us, if you're just listening to the podcast, Charisse is definitely pointing
at me. So yeah, I have a little, I am a recovering perfectionist. I like to say I have a much better handle on it than I ever have, but I do find that whenever I'm doing these sort of creative and new and fun and sort of novel things, I have to constantly remind myself, right? Competitive Kellye, like, no, no, no, no, it doesn't have to be perfect.
Charisse Deschenes (17:09)
You
Kellye (17:13)
You're just here to have fun and to flow with it. And especially whenever you're learning something new. So yeah, I love that. The goal isn't mastery, it's motion. It really is about moving and living. So I wanted to offer for the audience, if you're listening and you're thinking, well, all of this is great. It sounds really nice, Charisse and Kellye, but I'm exhausted and I am stuck.
your experience, even a light level of just burnout or maybe a light level, just tired or just feeling stuck. I just want to say, don't worry. We've been there. Charisse and I have, and I may be divulging too much Charisse, but I figured you would share. We're here to share. We, know, so we've been there. really have. And I would say that my advice to you, what worked for me was to start
Charisse Deschenes (17:53)
No, you're good. You're absolutely correct.
Kellye (18:06)
small, right? So like Charisse was saying, it's the five minutes of dancing, it's the, it's, start small, walk without your phone. These sort of things are really what start making the difference. I don't know, did you have other things that you did whenever you first started out that maybe I don't know about?
Charisse Deschenes (18:08)
Mm-hmm.
You know, I did, I do want to say it's important to let yourself laugh, right? Let yourself be terrible at something and love doing that anyway. And I think that when I really reflect on maybe some of the harshness that I put on myself and like just, you know, giving myself the time to be creative, I didn't do that as much.
And I challenge, you know, those listeners out there to just, you know, don't put so much pressure on yourself. I know you will, you're going to do it anyway. But when you think about someone that you really care about and what you would expect of them, you wouldn't want them to be all work and no play, right? You would want them to find that joy in their actions. And I was experiencing a lot of
burnout, we'll say. But one thing that I did to kind of shift gears to try to give myself a little bit of peace as I joined the 5 a.m. club. And I know ⁓ I think a lot of people. Yes, it was. But I was finding myself like up late, not really doing anything productive and falling asleep. And I was like, wait, maybe I love that morning time. And so I challenged myself to do that. And I shifted. I.
Kellye (19:25)
Mmm, that's so early.
Mm.
Charisse Deschenes (19:41)
have a blanket, it was winter time, I would light my favorite candle and put my weighted blanket on, drink my coffee, read a book, journal, and then do sometimes more yoga or less. Some days I would do a whole hour of yoga and skip those things. And then other times I would make sure that I fit a little bit of everything in and then did 10 or 15 minutes worth of yoga. But it really helped me intentionally set my day in a way that I had it.
I've been giving that to myself. So yeah, I have done it too, but yeah, that was just my way of dealing with burnout. Yeah.
Kellye (20:16)
Yeah,
and it's, you you gave yourself a whole hour, but then you allowed yourself the option of doing whatever you wanted in that hour, whatever served you in that day, whether it was the journaling or whether it was the yoga or some combination. I love that. I'm, I'm a little bit different. I will say just, you know, me, I'm different. have to be unique. The spelling of my name is unique. Right. So
Charisse Deschenes (20:37)
We are, we are all different, right? We have to do it our ways.
Kellye (20:42)
So
where you really thrive in what I'm hearing is like a freedom and a menu of options. For me, that seems ⁓ almost just a little overwhelming. And so I had to, whenever I was experiencing some level of burnout a couple of years ago, I had to really focus myself on something that I felt that was doable, ⁓ but still a little challenge. And so I challenged myself to go to the gym.
Charisse Deschenes (21:04)
Yeah.
Kellye (21:09)
for 15 minutes a day. That was my start small. And the 15, there's nothing magical about the 15, except that whenever I said 30 minutes, I was like, that's too much. That's too much of a commitment. I said 20, it still felt like a lot. And I was like, well, what about 10? I was like, well, what's the point? So that's, right? Yeah, but it almost felt like not even.
Charisse Deschenes (21:26)
Yeah, you can do 10.
Kellye (21:31)
like worthwhile, 10 isn't very much. And so that's how I settled on the 15. I was like, it's just in between, like where it doesn't feel like enough to make any difference and too much where I'm like, it's a blog for me to go. So I ended up with this 15 minutes a day and I did it for a whole month. And if you follow me on social media, you'll see those posts from whenever I did that. And I learned a lot just in those 15 minutes. And I challenged myself to not,
Charisse Deschenes (21:42)
Mm-hmm.
Ha
Kellye (21:59)
necessarily do anything in particular. It was literally just show up, show up to the gym. That's all I had to do for 15 minutes. And I gave myself permission. I was like, if I sit on a bench in the gym for 15 minutes, it's okay. I have accomplished my task, the perfectionist in me, right? It's real. And, but usually what I ended up doing honestly was it was movement based.
Charisse Deschenes (22:10)
Right, yeah.
Kellye (22:22)
really enjoyed most days just jumping on the elliptical, throwing in some good music and just really just kinda going after it for 15 minutes. Some days were just that, 15 minutes. But there were other days where I was like, no, I wanna keep going, this is fun, this feels good. And I went a little bit longer, but I never required myself to. And some days I did lift. I lifted a little bit of weights and did some pushups and stuff like that. I sprinkled those in, but really primarily every single day what sounded fun to me.
Charisse Deschenes (22:33)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye (22:50)
So similar to what you did was, you know, I gave myself that option of once I get there, I can do anything. And that really worked for me. So just to point out for the audience, right, is that I think there's a couple different ways that you can go here. And so if you crave the freedom and the flexibility and you want that open hour for yourself and you feel like you can do that and that sounds great for you, I would definitely do what you did, Charisse, right? Like 100%.
Charisse Deschenes (23:01)
Yeah.
Sure. And I love how
you prioritized yourself regardless. gave 15 minutes. And I think that that's a good message for all of us is like, you know, yeah, I gave myself an hour, but you know, there was a lot of flexibility. You have a different way of approaching it, but whatever it is, give that time to yourself, respect, give that respect to yourself to move, to get out there. And, you know,
Kellye (23:35)
Right. Yeah.
100 %
Charisse Deschenes (23:43)
It isn't that complicated. Just what would it look like to try it all again? Right? What, like if you want to try a new, a new movement or something you've done before, um, even if it's just a day or a week or you don't, you're not writing down like, you know, I did this in 25 minutes. It's not about the outcomes. It's not about anyone else. It's about you and what lights up you, but what lights up your spirit, right? Get back to that. Find that within yourself.
Kellye (24:07)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yes. It's, you know, really, it's about reclaiming your right to be more than just useful, right? We are great professionals. I think we all are. I just haven't met a public servant who isn't driven and passionate that stuck with it, right? I mean, but there's this being useful and then there's this reclaiming your right to be something more.
Charisse Deschenes (24:20)
Mm-hmm.
Next.
Kellye (24:35)
than just that, you are not just a productivity machine. You get to be curious, that's what this life is for. You get to be weird, you get to be messy, and you get to find joy in it. I love it so much. This has been such a really great conversation. Anything you wanna add?
Charisse Deschenes (24:38)
All right. All right.
Yeah.
You know, just find your joy. And this is how you become unmuted.
Kellye (24:58)
Absolutely. Well, here's my invitation to you.
What would it look like to try again? Even if it's just once this week, it's not for the outcomes, it's not for anyone else, it's just because it lights you up.
Charisse Deschenes (25:11)
⁓ yes, yes.
Kellye (25:12)
When we move,
when we create, when we dare to play, we become more of who we were meant to be.
Charisse Deschenes (25:18)
Yes, you're so right. Yes, that's a wonderful challenge. Even for both of us, even when we're like doing our, you know, our movement, just challenging to do more or challenging to try new things. I think that will always bring us that creativity and that imagination that we talked about earlier in the episode. So thank you all so much for listening. If it sparked something in you, share it with a friend, review, like and subscribe.
Kellye (25:36)
huh.
Charisse Deschenes (25:44)
We'd love to hear more from you.
Kellye (25:47)
All the things, all the things. Share it with a friend, please. This could be so helpful for them. Leave that review and do subscribe for more. And remember, you're allowed to move. Here's your permission. You're allowed to move. You're allowed to make. You're allowed to become more than what the world expects. So until next time, we'll see you here on Unmuted.
