Kellye Mazzoli (00:35)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Unmuted. Today's episode is about the support system that occurs behind leadership.
Charisse Deschenes (00:44)
Leadership doesn't mean doing it all alone. There have been seasons in my leadership journey when I thought I had to shoulder it all by myself. And I've learned that independence isn't always strength without support. And it can get lonely and heavy at the top without that support. So Kellye, I have a little question for you. ⁓ I know you've seen the impact when leaders don't have that support. So what happens when leaders try to go it alone?
Kellye Mazzoli (01:05)
Sure.
That is a really good question. I'm glad we're starting off with that. You know, without support, even the strongest leaders burn out. ⁓ I saw that and witnessed that firsthand when I was working through COVID with ⁓ all of the other strong leaders in city management there in Washington. So I've seen it firsthand, but I coach on it all the time. And so...
what I wanna let you know is that it shows up in a few different ways. It's burnout, it's decision fatigue, maybe even some isolation. And when leaders don't have those people around them, they often feel like they just can't take off the armor anywhere. So what that does is when you're isolated, it actually causes things to be distorted. So whenever you don't have trusted peers or mentors to process with,
a leader might get stuck in their own sort of echo chamber, right? And so small issues start to feel bigger and solutions start to feel like narrower, there are less options and your perspective can get a little distorted. And so it really starts happening when you're protecting others from the burden.
which I think a lot of us as city managers and assistant and deputy city managers or directors, we're trying to protect our staff from the burden of these difficult things that are coming down the line. And so whenever you put up this wall, it separates you and it separates you from the clarity that you actually need. So that's why trusted peers and mentors are really important to process with. So that
things don't become distorted and you don't get so stuck in the isolation. Now, the other thing that I see in leaders is that burnout will actually accelerate. So you'll start carrying the full weight of responsibility without any kind of release valve and that will lead to exhaustion. There is no way to get around that. When leaders try to be the hero, when they're trying to handle every decision, when they're trying to absorb every single pressure, inevitably,
it will drain their energy. And when that energy goes, so does their effectiveness, their patience, their creativity. So what I also wanna say is whenever you don't have a release valve, whenever you don't have trusted mentors and peers and coaches to help you sort of relieve some of this that's going on and all the stress that's inevitable with handling all these decisions, burnout will accelerate.
And finally, the last thing I want to warn about what it looks like is that your impact will start diminishing. So whenever you're going it alone, it actually limits your ability to influence. Strong leadership really isn't about proving you can do it all. It's really about creating connection, right? Remember the connected leader is the effective leader. And so this counts here too. Whenever you're trying to mobilize others, that is what strong leadership is about.
But whenever you isolate, your team will miss out, I think, on that shared ownership and innovation. And thus the leader misses out, right? The chance to multiply your impact and your impact starts diminishing. So those are the three things I would definitely say I see happen with people who are trying to go it alone. Charisse, I have a question for you.
Has there been a time when leaning on your support system actually made all the difference?
Charisse Deschenes (04:49)
⁓ yeah. Yep, absolutely, Kellye. Reflecting on an interim city management role I've talked about in other episodes, it was during COVID as well. So you mentioned the isolation during that time, but there were some decisions that I felt alone in and I, gosh, I had a lot of stress and anxiety over those decisions when I didn't reflect with the team on some of the
the work and felt like I needed to protect the team and keep a buffer in some way from some of the questions coming down from different council members, et cetera. And what I quickly realized is really, you gotta rely on your team and work together on problem solving, especially when you're in it and it's a difficult situation. And so I would say that was one example for me that I really relied on a support system.
heavily and that was an internal support system. And it taught me that leaning on others isn't weakness. It's what makes it possible for all of us to show up strong every single day.
Kellye Mazzoli (05:55)
Yeah, absolutely, So I also wanna point out that this is where a coach could actually be invaluable. So unlike your family and your colleagues, a coach is trained to stay objective, helping you to process challenges and to stay accountable, which sometimes,
you know, for family members, they may not fully understand everything that's going on in your role. And with your colleagues, they may understand everything that's going on in the role, but really you're more trying to connect on a level of like, you've dealt with that, yeah, I've dealt with that, you've dealt with that, here's my advice. really like bringing a coach in is very invaluable in this scenario where somebody can be objective and help sort of
pull you out of what is happening and help you process it, not just say, hey, yeah, I know, I know what that's like, I've been there.
let's talk a little bit about the types of support systems. What do you say, Charisse?
Charisse Deschenes (07:03)
Sure, ⁓ you know, when I reflect on that, Kellye, I think about friends and family as strong support systems. And as you mentioned, they aren't the ones that you turn to for, you know, talking about the work, but they're the ones that ⁓ re-energize your spirit, your soul, and connect you to who you are and really ground you in a powerful way. How do you think peers, mentors and networks show up differently, Kellye?
Kellye Mazzoli (07:31)
that's sort of what I was alluding to before is that peers will give you that, yeah, me too moment, right? Like I've been there, I've done that, I've experienced that, I've seen that. When you connect with a mentor, usually it's more like they're there to give you the wisdom, like they've been through it, here's what you can do. And then whenever you have your network, I think that really connects you to sort of bigger conversations.
Charisse Deschenes (07:37)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (07:57)
about like what's going on. And people who are in different states or different countries, things like that. So your networks really are about connecting to bigger conversations. Your peers are about connecting with people who are like, ooh, me too, I feel that as well. And then your mentors give you that wisdom. And whenever you add in coaching, coaching is really more structured and it gives you an ongoing space to reflect, to grow, have.
somebody who is willing to hold you accountable. So that's how I see all of those showing up a little differently. I would ask Charisse, do you think leaders need different types of support at different stages of their career? Did you find that to be true for you?
Charisse Deschenes (08:38)
Yes, and reflecting on what you said just now, I know that I've needed different people, different levels of connection throughout my career. Again, friends and family are always there, hopefully, and that just strengthen you as a human. And then adding in coaching, yes, life coaching, executive coaching.
I've done both through difficult times in my career and it's meant the difference in success or even helping me show up on a day-to-day basis. then mentors, yes, and the network. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily different stages in your career, but there are maybe some different times in your career when you're, for instance, you might rely on a coach more heavily when you're going through something really difficult in your
in your network where you don't feel, I can't really talk about this with my internal team. This is something I need to work through with someone else. So I think, yes, there are different times when you might call upon different people in your life to help support you.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:45)
Agreed. Yeah, I think in mine as well that I felt like I didn't use all the layers of support at every stage of my career, but I use multiple layers at every stage of my career. So early on, I had a really great peer support system through the Urban Management Assistance of North Texas. That was a lot of
me too, sort of energy and then, but I also had really great mentors and my city manager, my deputy city manager, there at that city early on in my career. And then it sort of evolved. And so sometimes I've needed more mentorship, but I think for me, the big change was whenever I found coaching and I was able to get that person who was outside.
not offering me advice, but allowing me to create my own solution. So let's talk a little bit about building and maintaining those support systems now, where I think it's really important for us to talk about how support systems don't happen by accident. They're actually built quite intentionally. And what that means is that if you're building your
You are scheduling like actual peer check-ins. For me, like I said, that happened a lot early on through UMANT, through that group. And so I was on committees and I ran for officer and that gave me opportunities to have these peer check-ins for me on a regular basis through our meetings and the different projects and things that we were working on. But, you know, so even though we were working on things for the organization, I got a great check-in there.
I think you also have to invest in mentorship to find those people that you really connect with. It's not something that can just be forced. Mentorship to me is really, you have to have that connection with that person who is mentoring you and you being able to take the mentorship.
then maybe also taking time outside of work. Like you're saying, I mean, your friends and your family are still central to the system, even if they don't necessarily understand everything that's going on in your work life. But taking that time outside of work really can help you. I think I would be remiss if I didn't also talk about coaching here, being that I am a coach.
And that is one of the most intentional steps that you can take because it gives you built in consistency of having conversations about things that are on your mind. And it builds in the accountability. It gives you a person where you know, like, okay, I don't have to react to this in this moment because I know I have my coach that I can take this to and I can process through this. So I find that my clients become a little less reactionary.
because they have the coaching to rely on. And so it's an investment. It's an investment in yourself and in your growth. Let me ask you, Charisse, what is something you've done recently? We talk so much outside of the podcast. So I know that you've done some things recently to strengthen your circle. I was just hoping that you might share with the rest of the audience.
Charisse Deschenes (12:46)
Yes, Kellye.
Yeah, absolutely. Let's go back to taking a sabbatical and stepping away from a role. One of my goals in doing that was to strengthen some of my personal relationships and spend time with family and friends that I didn't get a lot of time to do that with in the past. And so I felt like that step away gave me that ability to do so. And then more recently, returning back to a professional setting.
We talked last week a little bit about attending conferences, but one of my goals there was really to reconnect with people and start building relationships back and had a great opportunity for a one-on-one walk with a mentor while at the conference. But just really recognizing how all those people you may need, but they may need you too. I just have tried to reconnect in that role of
working into more of a coaching realm of I'm here for you. I think that that helps strengthen not only their relationship, but mine, hopefully. it's one way that I feel supported.
Kellye Mazzoli (14:07)
I love that. I love that you are actually like, so we practice what we preach. And it was one of the things that you shared was going on that walk, even scheduling a walk at a conference. And you actually did do that. And so I just. Not just any walk, a 6AM walk. Yeah, well, it's wonderful. It's wonderful of you to be willing to do that and even more wonderful of your mentor to be willing to show up and and to do that with you. So it definitely takes a two way street there.
Charisse Deschenes (14:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
A 6 a.m. walk, not just any walk, a 6 a.m. walk, which was nice, very nice.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I've learned if you don't make the time for it, the role in your life may consume you. And so these moments are so important. So Kellye, how can leaders tell if their support system is actually healthy or if it's draining them?
Kellye Mazzoli (14:48)
Yeah.
Well, let's start with healthy, A healthy support system is gonna be one where you feel lighter after connecting. And even if you don't get all the answers, you will walk away with at least a little more clarity and a little more energy. That's sort of the first sign that it's a healthy type of relationship and support system. The second is that they will challenge you and not coddle you.
That one is sometimes nerve wracking to be on the other end of that, but healthy support isn't just about the comfort. mean, sure, that is nice to have those conversations, but ultimately, if you don't have somebody who will call out your best self and help you find that best self, you're missing the mark. So if they challenge you and they don't coddle you, that's actually the sign of a really healthy and good...
Charisse Deschenes (15:41)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:51)
balanced support system. The other thing is that there's some reciprocity, right? That the relationship feels mutual and not one-sided. So it means you can give and receive without any sort of guilt. even going back to your 6 a.m. walk, that is something where you're both willing to put in the time and the effort to have that relationship.
Charisse Deschenes (16:02)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (16:16)
And I think that that is the sign of a healthy support system. It goes both ways. And so I'm sure if this mentor were to call you up and ask you to go and go for a walk at an off time, that you would be willing to do that to accommodate their schedule as well. So those are the healthy signs of a support system. Now, let's talk a little bit about a couple of the signs that maybe your support system might be a draining.
One, you're gonna leave and you're gonna feel more exhausted than when you arrive. So if every support conversation feels like a weight, that's not support. You can feel it in your body. You know those people that you talk to where you're just like, ⁓ you know, whenever you're done, you feel like there's more weight on you than when you started that conversation. If that is typical, right, then that is the sign of a draining, exhausting, not great for you support system.
Charisse Deschenes (16:54)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (17:13)
And then the final thing I would say is to watch for if you are shrinking or are you expanding? So if you're sort of shrinking like your ideas, your goals, your feelings are just sort of dismissed and minimized. Then the system is probably going to be more eroding to your confidence instead of strengthening it. I haven't found too many people that I am connecting with.
Charisse Deschenes (17:28)
Mm-hmm.
Kellye Mazzoli (17:41)
where this is something that's happened, but it's probably because as soon as I feel something like that, I move on to somebody else. I drop that so quickly. So I'd be really interested to hear if anybody in our audience has ever had that sign of a draining support system.
Charisse Deschenes (17:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, Kellye, I think that's so important. ⁓ And I have felt the shrinking before, but maybe for a different episode, we can talk a little bit about that. But to bring this full circle and close out our segment today, I would want to say that at the end of the day, leadership isn't a solo sport. It's sustained by the people you allow in your corner. And giving yourself permission to lean on others isn't weakness, it's wisdom.
Kellye Mazzoli (18:25)
And I'll just add, stay unmuted, especially when it comes for asking and accepting the support that you need.
