Kellye Mazzoli (00:34)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Unmuted. Today's episode is gonna be about the cost of cozy. Why discomfort is the currency of growth? So, Charisse, do you know that feeling when everything feels predictable?
Charisse Deschenes (00:51)
Yes, I do.
Kellye Mazzoli (00:54)
The Council
agenda, maybe it feels manageable, your team actually knows their roles, you can run the meeting in your sleep. If you feel totally comfortable, totally in control and totally confident, I hate to break it to you, but you're probably not growing.
Charisse Deschenes (01:09)
Yes, and if you feel a little awkward and uncertain or you're like bad at something new, congratulations. That's what growth feels like. It's clumsy, it's vulnerable, and it's something frustrating, but it's also alive.
Kellye Mazzoli (01:26)
Today, we're gonna talk about the cost of cozy. So comfort feels really, really tempting. we wanna talk about why it feels tempting, why it can quietly actually limit people who are in leadership roles, and then maybe how to reframe that discomfort as proof that you're actually evolving. First, let's tackle what comfort gives and what it costs.
the role of comfort is very safe. It's stabilizing, it's restorative. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why you would want to feel comfortable. And I like to think about comfort and coziness as being like wrapped up in a nice cocoon of a warm blanket on the couch, maybe watching your favorite movie. so that's what the comfort feels like. And comfort is really
necessary for us sometimes, There are seasons in which we need that comfort for recovery, but it cannot be our permanent operating mode.
Charisse Deschenes (02:30)
Right, Kellye, so much. Comfort becomes that insulation. And leaders who stayed, like too cozy, risk that stagnation. So as an example, are you the city manager who's giving a budget presentation every single year, and it's the same one over and over and over? It becomes that safe and predictable, but eventually your Council may be
be tuned out because there's no innovation. It's the same thing every year. And also your staff too may feel like it's just the same old thing.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:03)
Just thinking about pulling up that old presentation and throwing in a few tweaks and then pushing it out again. It can feel like you're getting things done quickly and efficiently because we're always trying to be more efficient. But on the other hand, what about like, are you maybe the city manager that decided to choose some discomfort? So, for instance, one of the things whenever it comes to budget, I think about when we tried performance based budgeting for the first time.
It was 100 % guaranteed to be awkward. was messy. ⁓ Staff was not happy. There was a little bit of grumbling, but I do have to say that in the end, the result really helped us build more community trust and even staff trust because overall it was more participatory. But that sort of messy, awkward middle happens because it's new for everybody. They feel a little uncomfortable.
And so we had to work through that discomfort to get on the other side
Charisse Deschenes (04:00)
Yes, and that discomfort brings data. You've stepped into or stepped outside of what's really familiar to you and it's stretching your identity. You're building confidence and capacity within you, but also within your staff. And it may feel vulnerable to you right in the moment, but it's also where your growth is beginning.
Kellye Mazzoli (04:21)
So, Charisse what was a time when you realized that you were maybe staying in comfort a little too long? Like, I mean, maybe it cost you something as a leader. Do you have any times where that comes to mind?
Charisse Deschenes (04:32)
Yeah.
Let me think, can read. Okay, I'm going to reflect way back. It was a time when I was a planner too, and doing a current planner role. And the work to me felt mundane and repetitive and didn't challenge the innovative side of my brain. And I was really just struggling for showing up to work and really showing up ready to be excited about the work. And
there was an opportunity within the organization, a planner to role came open in the long range planning division. And I decided at that point in time that I was going to talk to the director about that role and sat down with him at the time and said, Hey, this job, it's killing me here. I, and he was like, well, you're really good at it. I thought you were happy in your role in current planning. And I was like, actually
No, I really love long range planning. And this is where I wanted to take my career at the time. And he was super supportive at the time. And they moved me over to the long range planning role. And then I moved up in that organization to senior long range planner and so on and so forth. But it really taught me that I needed to realize those moments when I just don't feel like I'm energized or that I can use my imagination or the innovation, the things that bring me joy in my job.
How about you, Kellye? I have a question for you. If you had to explain to a skeptical city manager that comfort isn't always safe, what story would you tell?
Kellye Mazzoli (06:00)
Yeah.
That is such a good question. So, Charisse, I think I would tell a story about a city manager that I worked with who there it seemed like the answer to Council was mostly no. And some of it was out of necessity, but also some of it, I believe.
you know, from the outside looking in was from this idea that they wanted to do what was comfortable, right, which is.
which they thought was what was safe, what they were comfortable with, doing the things and working on the projects in the areas of the organization that they had that background and that experience in. So whenever they stayed in their comfort zone where they thought it was safe, what ended up actually happening in this scenario that I'm thinking of is that the Council actually got restless and it ended up not being safe and that person's job.
ended up being on the line because the Council felt like they weren't being responsive. So if a city manager out there thinks that they can stay in that comfort zone whenever you're dealing with five, seven or more Council members, these are all dynamic human beings and your communities are dynamic too. So if you're staying in that nice, safe comfort bubble of what you're comfortable with.
Chances are that community and that Council are gonna start moving on without you. So I don't think it's always safe just because it's your safe place. That's the story that comes to mind for me.
Charisse Deschenes (07:47)
Yeah, that's a really good one. So often you can feel like that is the comfort that you know that your job is safe in that respect. So thank you for sharing that moment.
Kellye Mazzoli (07:58)
Absolutely. So let's head into the next sort of segment of this episode, which is what are the many faces of discomfort? And I want to talk about three big ways that I think I've seen discomfort show up. And I know it's shown up this way for me, but for other people, for the people that I've coached. So the three ways that you should be looking for these, for discomfort is identity discomfort, skill discomfort, and relational.
discomfort. Let me dive in a little bit to each of those. So the identity discomfort comes from doing something like stepping away from the role or the title that you feel like defined you or defined your value or your worth. The second, which is skill discomfort, is trying to learn a whole new tool or maybe a whole new communication style. So it's like actually building a skill that you don't have in your toolbox yet.
And then the third is that relational discomfort, which is giving feedback to the people that you supervise. Maybe it's setting boundaries with your staff or your Council, or even setting boundaries at home. There's, whenever it deals, whenever you're talking about other people and your relationships, there's this relational discomfort. Do any of those sound familiar to you, Charisse?
Charisse Deschenes (09:19)
I'm really reflecting on more recent past and thinking about identity discomfort. And, you know, I made a big decision to take a sabbatical and leave my role as deputy city manager, community and economic development director in my last role. And I would say there was some real time where I sat down in my journal and said, who are you without this role? Who are you without this title? And I had to get comfortable with that. I had to let that digest. had to.
really reflect on who I am and that my personal values are that I want to be true to myself and I want to always be energized and excited about the work that I do. And I really had to say, okay, if that's your identity, this is the right time to step away because it no longer serves you in this particular role. So.
That was my reckoning more recently with my identity and I'm still learning each day what that means. yeah, that's my experience. What about you, Kellye? Did you feel any skill discomfort?
Kellye Mazzoli (10:20)
for sure.
Yeah, actually, for sure. mean, all throughout my entire career, I, you know, this reminds me of when I was an assistant to the city manager. I actually had to create and implement and be the executive director of an entire nonprofit organization. Not something that I
thought I would be doing in city management, I thought I'd be managing the city and instead part of my role included this nonprofit organization that we built from the ground up. It was a very cool partnership between the city, the school district and our community college where we were working together to ensure that every graduate from high school got an opportunity to go to college if they wanted to.
So it was a really unique opportunity. It was an economic development opportunity also for the city, in addition to helping these kids and ensuring that anybody who wanted to go to college got to. It was really a fantastic idea. It's still going strong to this day. So obviously the foundation that I was able to build was...
was good and they have built even it's even bigger. And I think it offers even more years of college for for those students who are graduating from high school in that community. So it's a very cool, unique thing that I got to be on the ground floor of. But man, let me tell you, at that time, I was really uncomfortable. I didn't know the first thing about nonprofit management. mean, my master's was in public administration, but everything I had done up to that point really had focused on city management.
And so I had a lot to learn, but I did. So I worked through that discomfort and the other side of that was a program, like I said, that's still operating today. And it's still affecting the lives of kids in that community and the adults in that community. I mean, it really was a win-win. So I'm really glad I worked through that. And what's even funnier too is now whenever I think about it, further on in my career, that was early in my career in the first five years.
I came back around, now I work with a nonprofit organization, so I use those skills today, I do some consulting. And I also ended up the executive director in my assistant city management role for a taxing district that we needed to oversee for that city. So it all came full circle, very interestingly as I think about it. But yeah, so definitely, there's always skill discomfort, always learning something new.
Charisse Deschenes (12:48)
Yeah!
Well, I think it's just amazing that you recognize if you, you know, didn't stretch at the beginning, if you didn't take that step at that point in your career, none of those other things would have like lined up in place. If you would have said, no, I like my comfort cozy space. Like, what would that, what, would those people be that you helped? And you know, how has that made you grow or how, how is that making you grow? And it's just exponential as you.
Kellye Mazzoli (13:08)
Yeah. You're right.
Charisse Deschenes (13:23)
reflect on that. I love it and thank you. That's amazing.
Kellye Mazzoli (13:25)
Well said. Yeah,
well said. Yes, it is exponential. So whenever we're willing to fill that discomfort and grow early on, I do think that there's exponential benefits down the line to having done it early. Because there's nothing that stopped me from learning that later in life. I'm sure there would have been other opportunities, but because I chose to do it, even whenever it was very difficult in the beginning, I did get even more out of it in the end.
So we've talked a little bit about identity, we've talked a little bit about skill discomfort. So what about the third one, which is relational discomfort? Do you have any stories to share about that?
Charisse Deschenes (14:04)
⁓ boy,
I would say relational discomfort. was an interim city manager for 10 months. And it was during a time where there were five of seven appointed officials, including the mayor. And five, yeah, yes, I said five appointed. And it was a tumultuous time in the organization, as you can imagine.
Kellye Mazzoli (14:21)
five appointed.
Wow. Okay.
Charisse Deschenes (14:31)
Really on a day to day basis, the relational discomfort came to me when you'd have to tell the mayor no or a different Council member no or really stand up for staff or the division between operations and what the electeds are working on. And it was a constant challenge for me and the organization as we experienced that discomfort. And I think that
Foundationally, it was a good experience for me. Like looking back, it was very, very stressful to go through that change and go through that challenge. But I learned that it means more to stand up for what's right and ethical for our organization and for the profession. And just looking at your own personal values system when
dealing with the discomfort of growth. And this was a big learning opportunity for me and the team that went through it as well.
Kellye Mazzoli (15:31)
Absolutely. So I have to ask, do you, so when you were in it, it's like, sure, you're on the other side now. So you can reflect back and go, my gosh, there was so much growth. But when you were in it, did it feel like you were in danger? Did your brain sort of trick you into thinking that that discomfort was more than just being uncomfortable? It was actually danger? Yeah.
Charisse Deschenes (15:44)
⁓ yes.
it was a stressor for sure. It felt, I'd say
uncomfortable. I, a lot of stress and anxiety, in some ways danger. Yeah. I mean, it was, it wasn't a comfortable time in the community and there was a big division, between even the Council and community groups within the, where we lived and the organization that we served. so, yeah, it was.
There was some danger, there was some risk. And even looking back on that, like I reflect on, should I have accepted the interim city manager position for 10 months? And I knew going in that it was going to be a stressful situation, that it was going to be challenging. And even then, if I look back now, I would still make the decision.
to take on that role because I wanted to be there for the organization, for the change that we needed to go through and someone needed to sit at the helm during that really difficult time. So yes, there was danger. There was stress, there was anxiety, and yes, I would still choose to do that.
Kellye Mazzoli (16:56)
I do wanna do just a little, I like to shift just a little bit. So instead of danger, maybe the reality was though, that it was a signal that you were in new territory, right? You were in the interim city manager seat, you had all of these things going, there's a lot of new territory and you were on high alert. So just a little shift there. It's like our brains trick us into thinking this is danger, but maybe it's just a signal.
Charisse Deschenes (17:09)
Yeah.
Yes.
Kellye Mazzoli (17:22)
the uncomfort the discomfort, like that really is a signal.
Charisse Deschenes (17:25)
⁓
Yeah, yeah, go back to the comfort zone. love that. So just thinking about this and all the different types of discomfort, which type of discomfort for you, Kellye, identity, skill, relational, which type has stretched you the most in your leadership?
Kellye Mazzoli (17:29)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I really, I can relate to your relational discomfort. I'm not gonna say that that isn't really high on the list and maybe right even with my top one, but I would go for me personally, through my career, what I think I spent the most time on was identity discomfort. I had a lot of that. Meaning as I was coming up through the ranks, I have...
talked about this more than once is that I am sort of a type A overachiever perfectionist, all recovering from all of this. And I've done a lot of work on that, but I wasn't there early on in my career. So of course I was meeting all of my objectives and progressing right along to become an assistant city manager, deputy city manager to then become a city manager.
And then I met my husband and as you know, he is in the military. And so they tell us where we get to be stationed and we moved. And so I moved states right in the middle of like just this progress that I was making. And I had to take a step back. And that was really tough on my identity because I had a whole new state I had to learn. I had different politics, different growth policies, like just
there was a lot to learn, which was fun. Right. I enjoyed the dynamic quality of getting to learn a whole other state and a whole other view of like how a state handles city management. But at the same time, my identity took a hit with that. So I was very uncomfortable because I was ready to be at least in my mind, I was ready and focused on being an assistant city manager. And yet I still didn't have the title.
And so I focused on that for a long time. It wasn't until I realized like I just needed to let go of the title that I thought people would take me more seriously if I had the title, et cetera. Like I just let go of that. And I just leaned into to being that leader in the organization I was at with the title that I had at the time. And it worked. The more that I leaned into being the person and not worrying about the identity and the title,
Charisse Deschenes (19:46)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (19:51)
then I ended up with the title. And the truth is, if anybody wants to know, no, they don't take you more seriously when you have the title. So I did learn that. then identity. So I worked through all that and I felt really great. But then the identity sort of came back around whenever I decided to step away. So here I am at the height of my career. I had been working towards being a city manager. I was making progress again. And so I was right there.
And I decided that I wanted to do something a little different. And I wanted to help my colleagues in a different way, that the coaching that I had received was so helpful for me through the COVID response time for us there in Washington state, that I wanted to make sure that my colleagues had that all the time. And so I stepped back to start my own business. And then all of a sudden I didn't have that title anymore.
So I kind of had to work through that again, similar to what you were saying, right? Whenever you stepped away from your role as deputy city manager and just sort of working through that. to me, that's really the one that stretched me the most is understanding that, you know, your identity and the discomfort with your identity, means it's a signal that I'm attaching more to those words, to that title than probably deserve to be there.
Charisse Deschenes (20:47)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (21:06)
that my skills are there, my value is there, my relationships are there. And I'm just sort of attached to this idea of my identity and idea of that title. So that's the one I would say. With that being said, what about you, Charrise? It's like, what is yours? Is it the relational? mean, you had a really great story there.
Charisse Deschenes (21:25)
Kellye, would say, yes, it is the relational for me. But again, like you identify your identity and skills are right there. It all kind of goes together. But when I think about the relational stretch and the discomfort that I experienced, really forced me to reflect on my own values and my own ethics and where I stand and also looking at different city values, et cetera.
had I maybe experienced that differently, it would have taken me a little bit longer to really strongly commit to my own personal values and understanding boundaries and saying no. mean, I could think through a problem forever if you let me and like not make a decision on it. at turn, I learned the word no, I learned to make really strong decisions and
I learned about boundaries and standing up for the value system that I have. And I hope that that continues on as I build this new career in Lead From Center and my health coaching, leadership coaching, all the things that we do here. It's giving me that strength inside internally and more value of understanding who I am and where I wanna go in my career. And I really am thankful.
even though it was discomfort and it was tough to have gone through that to understand those things.
reframing this whole conversation and really thinking about this from a different perspective. Most people treat discomfort as a stop sign, right? No, don't do that difficult thing. So maybe talking about reframing that so this feels new. That perspective keeps you moving, taking a different approach to
Kellye Mazzoli (23:00)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (23:09)
what that discomfort brings you. I think that's really important to talk about.
Kellye Mazzoli (23:14)
Yeah, I think you're right. mean, reframing discomfort as growth is really crucial and it's key. And I think that was, you know, my most recent example is starting and launching my own business. I mean, it was really terrifying for me. speaking publicly has always been one of those things. Like I'm pretty vulnerable with people. I'll tell them, like, just, get nervous every time and I've been doing this for years and I've done a lot of speaking publicly and it doesn't matter.
I still just get a little shaky and I can hear it. I can feel it. And most people tell me, no, actually we don't know it all. don't seem like you're nervous or anything like that. I would say launching this business really was even more terrifying than that because it was all the things and all the things I didn't know. So it was an identity shift. It was a skill shift for me. I'm used to taxpayer dollars.
profit? Like what? You know, like we are always trying to use those dollars to better the community and invest them back into the community. And so just learning a whole bunch of new skills and then the relational, it's, it's, you know, all of a sudden I'm a vendor at those conferences. I'm not a fellow colleague whenever I go to ICMA or, you know, TCMA or any of those. And so, I mean, just all of it, it was awkward.
I think even pricing my services took me a little bit. I was a little uncomfortable with asking people for money because I was like, had to reframe it and understand that each of these things that I'm going to go through and each time that I, each moment that I was able to reframe it, it was going to be confirmation that I was growing as a person. These were new skills. This is a new identity. These are new relationships, all of those things. And so even though I felt uncomfortable, which
previously, right? You're supposed to be so confident about everything. So if you're not confident and you're uncomfortable, then you must be failing. So I had to reframe that and realize, no, the being uncomfortable. Of course I am. This is all brand new. And then reframe it as growing. That was the key for me.
Charisse Deschenes (25:21)
that takeaway. I think that, you know, those city managers have similar, not exactly the same, but everyone is uncomfortable, right? Each person feels uncomfortable, whether it be from like, know, pushing back on a Council that wants to micromanage. But if you're reflecting on it, honestly, you're evolving as a leader. And I think you really have identified in your example there, how that growth is so important, whether you're
building your own business or you're the leader of an organization or you're in mid-level management, pushing that line of like, I need to grow and I'm going to get into my discomfort in order to do so.
Kellye Mazzoli (26:01)
I think I learned too over time is that you can't be 100 % polished. You can't be 100 % safe and be growing at the same time. As much as I wanted to be. I wanted to be that person who...
looked 100 % polished, who felt 100 % safe and I just happen to be growing too. And the reality of what I've learned over all of this time and all of the different times that I've stepped into that growth is that it's not possible to be all of those things at once. So if I'm choosing growth, so for you, if you're choosing growth, you're choosing some uncertainty, right? But.
Charisse Deschenes (26:42)
Right. Yes.
Kellye Mazzoli (26:44)
The trade off is possibility beyond your wildest dreams. I am such a different person today than I would have been if I had stayed safe and comfortable and polished. So I can't recommend it enough, but yeah, the trade off is worth it. Charisse, let me ask you about...
Maybe you could reflect on a moment when you shifted from seeing discomfort as a problem to seeing it as actual progress.
Charisse Deschenes (27:17)
Yeah, wow. It's a big question, Kellye, because sometimes when I reflect back on things, obviously I see it as progress now. And I would say in the moment, going through some of the changes that I did in my previous job and going through that interim role, discomfort was really hard. And I didn't see the benefit or the progress at the time. I'm going to be honest. I was really
stressing out and felt really anxious. once I got past it and reflect back on all the things and all the different changes that I've made in my life, it really is because of the discomfort. yeah, boy, did I not see that as progress at the get go. How about you? Is there, how do you remind yourself in the moment that discomfort's growth and not failure?
Kellye Mazzoli (27:58)
honestly, I just have the really tough conversation with my brain whenever my brain starts getting worked up and saying danger, danger, you're uncomfortable. Like this is failure. What are you doing? Who do you think you are? I like to sit on the edge of my bed and I share this with my clients. I mean, this is a real thing that I do. And I have a conversation with myself, with my brain. I say, hey, brain, like, I see where you're going. I understand that you think this is failure. I I understand that you think that you
Charisse Deschenes (28:05)
Ha ha!
Kellye Mazzoli (28:24)
You know, you're not safe, but here's a reminder. Don't worry, this is growth. This discomfort means we're growing. This discomfort means we're doing something new. That's all it means. We're not failing, we're growing. We're gonna get better at this. Like just, we gotta keep going and keep pushing through. So I sit on the edge of my bed and I have those conversations with myself quite a bit.
Charisse Deschenes (28:44)
You
Kellye Mazzoli (28:46)
And I'm not gonna lie, it's actually a technique that I learned from my grandma. So she told me that she did this at one point in her life about a really serious topic and I took it to heart and I've never really forgotten it and I started doing it myself and now I do it and I pass it on to my clients. So yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, have a conversation with your brain, talk to it.
Charisse Deschenes (29:05)
I'm gonna try that, like saying it out loud. Like,
thank you. Okay, I will do that more often instead of just journaling. Thank you.
Kellye Mazzoli (29:12)
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, journaling is the same way, but sometimes you can just sit down and have a conversation with yourself. you know, maybe maybe it'd be weird if I were to record that. But it's worked for me whenever I have really big decisions to make and I to be like, OK, you're just being ridiculous. So it's worked several times for me in my life. All right. So let's share some practices to build
Tolerance of discomfort because I think that would be helpful for the audience Charisse That they're they're like, okay, this is great. We feel uncomfortable. But like man I mean does it have to feel terrible the whole time all the time, right? Yeah, so what do we do? So I'm gonna say that there's about three things, know three practices that I think you should do To build that tolerance and the first is to notice The first thing you have to be is in tune to notice the discomfort
Charisse Deschenes (29:49)
What now?
Kellye Mazzoli (30:07)
And you have to be able to label it without judgment. So if you're labeling your discomfort as danger, if you're labeling your discomfort as, you know, failure, right? If you're going to those places and you're putting judgment on it, whether it's good or it's bad, that's not where you want to go with this. You just want to say, hey, this is discomfort. It doesn't mean anything. It's just uncomfortable. Use it as a signal. So that's the first part. Notice it.
The second piece that I think you should do is then you want to name what's on the other side of the discomfort. Meaning if you are willing to go through this feeling of discomfort, who would you become on the other side of it if you actually go through it, if you leaned into it? So naming that, and that's a great journaling thing. I don't know if that's what you journal on, but I would recommend like talk, like you got to remind yourself like, hey, on the other side of this,
You and I, Charisse, are gonna be fabulous podcasters on the other side of this discomfort.
Charisse Deschenes (31:06)
Yeah.
Thank you. I will put that down in my journaling.
Kellye Mazzoli (31:09)
⁓ And then the third practice would be,
right? I had to have that conversation with my brain. Like, it's cool, let's do this, we're gonna have fun. And then the third thing is to build some tolerance gradually, right? It's all about steps. I think I talked a little bit about that, but you can't do it all at once. So, I I started my business three years ago.
Charisse Deschenes (31:12)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (31:30)
and I had other things I needed to work on, other things that I was uncomfortable with. And as I worked on those, I just found the next thing. And so, like for instance, the very first thing in my business was not to start a podcast. That just wasn't the discomfort I was ready to feel yet. So I grew my business organically and successfully.
But it was all about taking the steps. So I did the things I needed to do and then I finally got to this point where I'm like, okay, here's the next uncomfortable thing that I'm gonna do. And I found some support in Charisse to do that with me. So I appreciate that.
Charisse Deschenes (32:02)
Thank you. And you make me think, should I be starting a business right now with just getting started and doing a podcast? But I digress.
Kellye Mazzoli (32:04)
But you know, so, yeah, for those who've...
Yeah, see,
you get to yeah, you yeah, yeah, no, no, no, you you definitely come you come from a different place than I did whenever whenever I went to start this business. And we have, you know, everybody comes from different places. And so we coach from where you're at. So, yeah, don't feel like just because I had the discomfort that you have to have the discomfort to. That's fine. But, you know, I do want to encourage like some some leaders if if they're having a hard time doing the step by step.
of discomfort trying to take some small steps to do a discomfort log. And basically what you do is you would write down some small risks that you're taking that you're uncomfortable with. it might be, I mean, sometimes it was like speaking up in a meeting for me, to be honest, and I would be like, yes, I did it. Maybe it's pitching a new idea. there are different, just small risks that you're willing to take. And then you track the outcome. Because what you want to do is use it as proof for your brain.
like you're not going to die if you lean into this discomfort. If you speak up in this meeting, you're not gonna die. But you have to prove that to your brain. So one of the ways, you're having some extra issues with taking these small steps, I would say those are the people who need to start this log to prove, write it down and prove that you're taking those small discomfort steps and that proof for your brain will take you through it.
and get you through it and allow you to continue to grow.
Charisse Deschenes (33:37)
That's so well said, Kellye. I think that discomfort is kind of your discomfort tolerance is a muscle, right? That you're building constantly. And if you keep training it, you evolve and you avoid like plateauing and bottoming out. You make it actively something that you're working on in your career or in your life. It means so much more that way.
Kellye Mazzoli (33:49)
Mmm, yes.
Charisse Deschenes (34:03)
So let's shift gears a little bit and talk the real talk about the cost of Cozy. The danger of Cozy, it feels safe, but it leads to stagnation. Some managers burn out not because of too much challenge, but because of too little growth for purpose.
Kellye Mazzoli (34:19)
Yeah, I, you know, I can think about this and I come up with this story of a city manager who resisted some tech upgrades in their city. And it was because they were just uncomfortable with it and they decided to stay a little cozy. They decided to stay comfortable. But the reality was, is that the city actually fell behind. And so it was much more difficult in the future for them to implement.
the needed tech all because they were resisting those upgrades in the first place. And in contrast, like if I think about it, there's also another manager that I've coached who actually leaned into that awkwardness of the whole process. they had to do like a whole digital transformation of their city and there was a lot of short term pain. I'm not going to lie, but for them in the end, there was
there was really more progress and more growth that came on the other side of that. So I highly recommend, especially for something like if there's an area in city management where you don't feel comfortable and you know, you really do know that the city needs to move forward in those ways. And I think with AI coming on board and the changes that are happening right now, they're happening at lightning speed and they're only going to keep happening
quicker and quicker and quicker, you can't stay cozy, you can't fall behind because there's gonna be exponential consequences for that in a bad way. Now, if you're willing to embrace it and move forward and leverage technology in a way that's gonna be beneficial for your city and your community, and you can help sort of write the story moving forward with AI and with tech and all of that, I mean, you're gonna be in such a better place.
So yeah, it's awkward right now. There's gonna be some pain, the pain of growth, the pain of change, and just not knowing really where all the technology, for instance, is going. But you really could make a lot of progress if you do.
Charisse Deschenes (36:17)
discomfort. It's just, it's personal, but it's also your professional currency, right? And you need to fill up your piggy bank for growth. Your city benefits, take this away, your city benefits when you take that risk and you grow and you gain from leaning into it and the rest of your team does as well.
Kellye Mazzoli (36:42)
I love that idea. my gosh, the idea that you have a piggy bank of growth and every time you feel discomfort, that's like adding a little penny or a little quarter into your piggy bank of growth. I love it, it's such a good.
Charisse Deschenes (36:52)
Yeah, yeah. Maybe a
dollar with inflation, but yes.
Kellye Mazzoli (36:58)
Sure,
sure, dollars, whole dollars. Great, so let me ask you, Charrise how do you know personally when you've gotten too cozy? What's your signal? How do know it's time to step into that growth again?
Charisse Deschenes (37:02)
⁓
I have a f-
Kellye, feel, I get bored and I also start like just feeling not satisfied with what I'm doing in my career. so yeah, those are two signals. When I start feeling bored or I just don't want to, it feels cringy and I need something more. That's when I know you're, you're not growing. You're too cozy. but I will pose that same question to you. When do you feel or what is your signal?
Kellye Mazzoli (37:30)
Mmm.
Charisse Deschenes (37:39)
when you know it's time to step into growth a little more.
Kellye Mazzoli (37:44)
Yeah, I think for me, I just sort of fill the itch. I'll notice that I'm probably doing more Google research on different areas and different things, and maybe it's new jobs and that sort of thing. So that's whenever I know, hey, it's time, it's time.
Charisse Deschenes (38:03)
You feel it. Yeah. So bringing all of this full circle today, growth doesn't come from staying cozy. It comes from choosing to feel the edge of your own evolution and doing the work and the change and that getting into that discomfort and making that progress anyway.
Kellye Mazzoli (38:24)
And you don't need to be fearless, right? Like you don't have to already be completely like excited to do it. You just need to be willing to try something new. You need to be willing to maybe be seen and seen not being perfect. You need to be willing to just be uncomfortable in the service of something more real, in the service of your community. Like you don't have to be fearless.
Charisse Deschenes (38:47)
Yes. And I have a call to action, right, for this, for everyone here. So as you step into the week, ask yourself, where are you craving growth? And what small discomfort might you welcome to move toward it?
Kellye Mazzoli (38:51)
Okay.
Oh, yes. Where are you craving growth? Right. It doesn't have to be all the places. It's like where and then decide some small discomforts you want to take to move it forward. I really love that, Charrise. All right. So that's the challenge of the week for our audience. And I guess I'll close us out because choosing discomfort is choosing to unmute and it means choosing to grow.
