Kellye Mazzoli (00:31)
Hello and welcome to another Unmuted Podcast. Today, when we talk about leadership, we're gonna talk about holding space versus taking space. And if you think about it, most conversations actually start with tactics, how to communicate, how to manage conflict, how to set priorities. But one of the quiet forces underneath all of that is how you use space.
The tension between holding space and taking space. Every leader has a default pattern and very few of us ever stopped to actually examine it. So that's what we'll do today.
Charisse Deschenes (01:08)
And that pattern that we talk about, whether you learned it in your family, early roles, or through survival and difficult like workspaces, it shapes everything about us. It shapes how people read us. It shapes what they bring to you. It shapes whether they feel safe contributing around you. And this is one of the most important dynamics in leadership that nobody really names.
Kellye Mazzoli (01:30)
And once you see it, you will start noticing it, I think everywhere. Every meeting, every conversation, every room. Space is constantly being created, filled, seeded, taken, or even shared. So leadership really is the art of managing that flow intentionally instead of just letting your habits run the show. So let's talk a little bit about what it actually means. Holding space's presence with boundaries.
It is the discipline of being fully with someone without absorbing their emotional state or jumping in to rescue, fix, or talk over what they're uncovering. So I'm gonna say that again, because I think it's really important. Holding space means being fully with someone without absorbing their emotional state. And it means being fully with someone
without jumping in to try and rescue or fix something or tell them talk over what they're uncovering. I think most people don't realize how rare that they have experienced this kind of presence. But leaders who can hold the space will give people something they don't get anywhere else. And I think, you know, I see that as uninterrupted clarity. The experience of hearing themselves think it requires more than silence.
It actually requires some regulation on our part. So leaders who cannot regulate their own anxiety cannot hold space. They will rush the story. They will shape the narrative and they will push towards some resolution. So holding space is choosing not to interfere even when your brain is screaming to.
Charisse Deschenes (03:09)
Yeah, and to counterbalance that, Kellye, taking space is that place where you're stepping into clarity, your voice and groundedness. So it's saying, here's what I know, here's what I'm naming, or my boundary is here. It's giving the room something to respond to instead of waiting to be invited.
And taking space is essential in leadership because people look to you for your orientation. And if you never take space, your team will fill in the blanks with their own interpretations of what's in your head, right? And those interpretations are almost always worse than the reality of what's happening in the room.
Kellye Mazzoli (03:40)
Yeah.
Both skills really are forms of generosity. So holding space gives others room to expand. Taking space gives others something to anchor to. And I really, really believe that leadership requires both the holding and the taking of space. I would even venture to say that the quality of your leadership improves when you know which one the moment actually needs.
Charisse Deschenes (04:15)
And so let's take a little time to talk about why the balance matters in this situation, you know, or why leaders, when leaders are always holding that space, but they never take it, their teams operate without a clear read on what they're thinking or what their intention is. And people start projecting meaning into the silence. They wonder what you really think.
Kellye Mazzoli (04:39)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (04:39)
They assume agreement where there is none and they walk on, yeah, right. And then, you know, walking on eggshells, trying not to get it all wrong. And over time, the leader becomes a blank wall. People see strength, but not direction. And they see the support, but not clarity. It creates a distance that you did not intend as the leader.
Kellye Mazzoli (04:42)
Sometimes.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. And on the other side of that, when leaders default to taking space, they unintentionally compress the room. If if they're filling every single gap with answers, analysis or direction because silence feels like a lack of leadership. Like, but every time a leader jumps in too early, then the team the team actually learn something. They're learning, hey, hold your idea. The space will close before you can even use it.
Charisse Deschenes (05:19)
huh.
Kellye Mazzoli (05:30)
And the room is full of unspoken solutions, right? You have a team in place because they have all of these skills and abilities. And what you'll find if you are constantly taking space and not holding space as a leader is that people will start to shrink back, not because they lack the insight, but because the environment doesn't actually invite their contribution.
Charisse Deschenes (05:52)
Yeah, yeah, and neither of these patterns is a flaw, right? They're learned. They come from your upbringing, your role in your family system as you grow, maybe your early workplace setting and what you learned there, or what you had to become in order to survive in high pressure situations and environments. leadership is rarely what you learned.
Kellye Mazzoli (06:02)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (06:17)
early on, right? It's about what you're willing to unlearn now in this situation.
Kellye Mazzoli (06:23)
And every great leader eventually realizes that their default mode is not the problem. I really do believe the lack of awareness is because once you can see it, you can choose differently in real time. And that choice is really what shifts the emotional tone of a room.
Charisse Deschenes (06:38)
Yeah, so let's look at what this looks like in real life. So shared space is the foundation of healthy teams. And leaders who understand space create this environment where multiple truths can exist at once. That looks like slowing the pace so people can catch up. Or maybe that looks like the intentionally expanding the room for someone who rarely speaks.
And it also looks like letting silence be productive instead of uncomfortable. So it's strategic. And the leaders that really are kind of on pace with this, they learn to manage that space. They will increase the psychological safety without ever using the term.
Kellye Mazzoli (07:24)
Yeah, and there's even the internal work. So space is not just what happens outside of you, it's what happens inside in your nervous system. Are you staying quiet because you're thoughtful or because conflict feels dangerous? Are you speaking quickly because you're decisive or because stillness feels like losing control?
So most leaders have one of each, a room where they speak freely and a room where they disappear. And those patterns can actually tell you a lot more about your internal hierarchy than your external leadership.
Charisse Deschenes (07:53)
Yeah, and I think like what you and I have been learning through coaching is that people do not need that dramatic rewiring to lead differently.
Kellye Mazzoli (08:03)
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (08:03)
Most shifts
happen in like just tiny moments of awareness. And a lot of times when you're sitting with a client and you're just asking them questions, they have that aha moment. So for instance, I'm filling this space because I'm uncomfortable or I'm holding this space because I'm afraid of being judged. It's usually something that's internal to them and that's how they're reacting. So I'm letting someone dominate because I don't want to challenge them or I'm speaking
Kellye Mazzoli (08:30)
You
Charisse Deschenes (08:31)
for too long because I want the outcome to feel predictable. These are micro realizations and they change how you move
Kellye Mazzoli (08:40)
And aren't you really like, you know, if you're not speaking up because you don't want to challenge somebody, you know, and you're afraid of dominating the conversation is because you're really worried about, you know, what other people think of you and you're worried about sort of what foot you're putting forward. I think once once you start noticing, though, what your default is, it will become impossible not to see it, which means.
Charisse Deschenes (08:52)
Yeah.
yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (09:01)
You absolutely, and I've said this more than once, you can choose something different just because you've done it 100 times in the past or a thousand times in the past doesn't mean that that is your set one and only option in this moment. You can always choose something different every single moment, every single present moment that you have. So that awareness is really, really crucial and you can be intentional with it whenever you have it. let's talk a little bit now about how to practice the balance.
Right, so holding space I think requires three skills. It requires, like I just said, presence. But it also requires restraint and regulation. So presence means that you're actually in the room. You're not in your head rehearsing your next move. It means that you are fully present and aware of what's going on. The restraint.
means that you do not try to rescue somebody from their own growth moment. we always want to jump in and fix the problem or fix the thing or we can do it quicker, we can save them pain. That's not always the best thing to do. Sometimes others need their own growth moment. restraint means you restrain yourself from jumping in to rescue someone when they don't really need the rescue, they actually need to go through the moment. And then finally, there's regulation.
And the regulation really is about you tolerating the discomfort of not fixing, of not being the person who fixes the problem right there in that moment and allows somebody to have their growth moment. So if you can do these three things, I think people will really be able to bring you their insight instead of just their problems. And isn't that kind of what you're hoping for in a team environment.
Charisse Deschenes (10:40)
Yeah, absolutely. And when you're thinking about this from the perspective of taking space, it requires different skills. So things like clarity, groundedness, and precision. So clarity, meaning that you know what you're actually saying, and you're preparing yourself, and you're saying that in the moment. And groundedness means that your nervous system can handle being seen.
And a lot of people have to work on themselves, especially if they're feeling unheard or maybe they're just not feeling like they have that ability to connect in that way with the team. So these are skills that you develop and you think about intentionally. And then precision really means that you say what matters and you stop when it's said.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:30)
Sometimes that's hard.
Charisse Deschenes (11:30)
So right, right. So taking
space, it's not about speaking more. It's really about speaking with intention. It's drawing people in instead of shutting them down.
Kellye Mazzoli (11:42)
Yeah, let's see, like a practical cue, like before you act, I think you can ask yourself, is this moment calling for me to expand into this space or is it calling for me to contract and allow others to fill the space? And if you can sort of like make sure to pause and ask that question, like, hey, do I need to be the person in this room taking all the space or do I need to be the person holding back so that others can take that space?
if you ask that whenever it comes up, like, Hey, you should expand. Then you want to step forward and take that space and lead the room. Go for it with that clarity that you're talking about and the groundedness and the precision and not over explaining. Like maybe I'm doing right now ⁓ or contract, right? Where you step back and you open it up so that others can expand into the space. But both of these are leadership and both of them are actually strength. come from strengths.
Charisse Deschenes (12:20)
Nah, they don't.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:33)
I think it's the key to good leadership is knowing when to use which one.
Charisse Deschenes (12:39)
Yeah, Kellye and part of learning is there is that discomfort when you're doing it and know in that moment that it's not a sign that you're failing. It's really a sign that you're growing in that moment.
Kellye Mazzoli (12:44)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Charisse Deschenes (12:53)
So let's take a little time and talk about this week's reflections. Let's think about the rooms where we naturally hold space. Does it serve the room or does it shield you from vulnerability? And where do you take space automatically? Does it create clarity or does it create compression? And where are you overdue to step forward and where are you overdue to step backward?
Kellye Mazzoli (13:18)
Absolutely, I think that's fantastic. Watch your team too, for their patterns. You can watch for the same things, like who jumps in first, who never speaks unless they're asked. You know, who dominates because they're anxious, not because they're confident. And what subtle adjustment from you, like one question, one pause, one invitation could actually rebalance the entire room whenever you're just fully aware and present in that.
Charisse Deschenes (13:35)
Yeah.
Kellye Mazzoli (13:45)
in that space and time. So remember to use space as a leadership tool. either use it or leave it to chance. Those are your options. And when you start using it intentionally, I think a lot of things change from the tone of meetings change, the quality of decisions will change. And honestly, the way that your team experiences you and your leadership will change.
Charisse Deschenes (14:09)
Absolutely. leadership is the art of knowing when to center yourself and when to de-center yourself.
Kellye Mazzoli (14:17)
and we're here to help you as you practice both. taking that space without guilt and holding space without disappearing.
Charisse Deschenes (14:24)
Thanks for joining us on Unmuted.
Kellye Mazzoli (14:27)
We will see you next time.
